THE VALUE OF POINT SHOOTING

ExcitableBoy

US Veteran
Joined
Feb 17, 2017
Messages
820
Reaction score
1,562
Location
Wisconsin
About a year ago my Lady Co-Pilot finally took the class to qualify for her CCL. As I've had mine for a while (always carried, anyway), for $50 and a copy of my DD-214, I had/have no "official" reason to plunk down the $75 cost for the session, which consisted primarily of ethics, laws, responsibilities, CC methods and suitable handguns. Range-time with instruction was an extra $75, which she opted out of because I have been providing plenty of each at home out here in the sticks. She trusts my experience and knowledge, and takes instruction well.

Just for grins, I sort of hung around "offstage" and was able to hear what was going on. The instructor was an ex-LEO patrolman/detective from Milwaukee with over 30 years under his belt. His presentation was very competent, clear and succinct. I felt that all were in goods hands, so I wandered the huge farm-type superstore which also sold most everything Wally World does except groceries. This included a great sporting goods section with a nice assortment of guns, ammo and accessories. After getting my fix of ogling guns, I drifted back to my former eavesdropping position to listen to the class progress.

The instructor was in a Q&A portion of the class and I tuned in sharply. In a group of twenty, or so, there were the usual know-it-alls, the sidewalk commandos, the bubbas, the new guys and gals (who were asking the most intelligent questions), and then I heard a voice pipe in which I recognized, my aforementioned Lady Co-Pilot. The question to the instructor I heard, roughly, was: "What is you're opinion of the use of laser sights if you have to defend yourself at night, or in a dark house? Wouldn't using them just give your position away? Isn't the idea of personal defense to stay hidden, and shoot from some kind of cover, if possible?"

You've heard of a pregnant pause? Well, this one was about a month overdue and getting painful! I damn near broke out laughing... and felt quite proud of my Lady. She had really been absorbing my instructions! It took quite a few seconds, but the instructor finally answered, "I had never really thought about it that way. Tell you what... let's take a fifteen minute break and I'll think about it."

I scooted out of there and found some boots to look at while waiting for my phone to ring so my Co-Pilot could find me and talk about what had gone on in class...

This brings me to the value of point shooting, which I have been teaching her, in conjunction with accuracy on target, moving to cover, and if you don't have decent cover, go as low as you can and still be able to shoot, different shooting techniques for different situations, etc. I taught myself point shooting with my first handgun, and became good enough to put rounds where I wanted them 95% of the time, never bringing sights in alignment with my eyes. Snap-shooting, or instinct shooting, it's sometimes called. I always figured it was the best technique in certain situations... keep the gun close to the body, sometimes with the elbow locked into the ribs. I don't know if it still is, but the FBI used to teach this.

My thinking, and self-training, on this technique is that sometimes you just won't be able to pull up and get a good sight picture... it could be too late for you if you don't get off a fast accurate shot or two. And, on a dark night, or in a dark room scenario, aligning sights is pretty much a no-go, even with Trijicons (Yes, I've had them.), or whatever, because you can't see the target anyway. But you CAN see shadow movement and hear where the bad guy might be.

Shooting paper in a static position is all well and good for primary firearms training, learning gun control and marksmanship (I do my share), but for serious up-close self-defense stuff I practice/train a lot of point shooting with all of my CC guns.

Okay, brothers and sisters, I would love to hear from you. Anyone else use the above techniques described? Different methods toward the same goal? Flashlights/lasers vs. staying behind cover and springing a big surprise?
 
Register to hide this ad
Interesting read. I believe in the value of training to shoot in more than one position, and with different techniques. From an arm's length while someone is trying to grab you or your pistol, point shooting or shooting from the hip may be your only option.

Tons can be written on this subject, but that being said:

Don't forget to realize that you own every bullet that you launch. Trying to be high speed and hitting an innocent bystander is generally considered a bad thing 99.9999999% of the time. Your third paragraph from the end somewhat makes me nervous. Shooting at shadows, movement, and sounds is the best way to shoot an unintended target.

I taught this stuff for a living for a while to Marines who were deploying to combat zones, and even on drills where the threat was coming from the left/right/and behind, you always put sights on target. Didn't matter if it were a more static range or room/building clearing. You own your shots and had better be able to identify your target.
 
I do a lot of shotgun shooting,mainly sporting clays and that is ALL about point shooting,or instinctive. If you see the bead,chances are you will miss the target. As far as pistol shooting..if the range is under 15 feet,it's going to be a point shot.If I need to be accurate beyond that,especially with a pistol..sighting is best for me.
As far as laser beams..I like them as long as I can turn them on/off with my middle finger on the grip. I don't aim center mass, so a laser to an opponents eyes is very effective in blinding them as I squeeze the trigger..:)
 
Last edited:
Interesting topic and replies. I have had some night shooting experience and night sights were definitely a plus for me but point training is also important but takes a lot more work to be competent. ID of the target is paramount before shooting!
 
Be confident in your shot placement, certainly this is done with hours of practice. Aligning target sights in a bad situation is probably not going to happen. I never want to be in that setup but being able to put a bullet on target with point shooting technique is a plus.

BTW, I never saw Roy Rogers shoot a rattler after lining up the sights on his six gun. :)
 
Be confident in your shot placement, certainly this is done with hours of practice. Aligning target sights in a bad situation is probably not going to happen. I never want to be in that setup but being able to put a bullet on target with point shooting technique is a plus.

BTW, I never saw Roy Rogers shoot a rattler after lining up the sights on his six gun. :)

And Matt Dillon had a long and successful career shooting from the hip. :)
 
"What is you're opinion of the use of laser sights if you have to defend yourself at night, or in a dark house? Wouldn't using them just give your position away? Isn't the idea of personal defense to stay hidden, and shoot from some kind of cover, if possible?"

You've heard of a pregnant pause? Well, this one was about a month overdue and getting painful! I damn near broke out laughing... and felt quite proud of my Lady. She had really been absorbing my instructions! It took quite a few seconds, but the instructor finally answered, "I had never really thought about it that way. Tell you what... let's take a fifteen minute break and I'll think about it."

Reading between the lines I would conclude that you do not endorse the use of lasers. I'm not really sure why this topic keeps coming up and the constant disdain for this tool. Personally, I have the Crimson Trace laser with the trigger guard and absolutely love it. I find it to be an excellent training tool when dry firing ( laser on to watch muzzle movement) and point and shoot training ( laser off until pointed at target ).
I've practiced home defense scenarios where the gun has been brought to arms ( with laser off) and ready to go on target and paint with laser in one fluid movement. I just don'tsee how it is a hindrance or a negative.
To be clear, I don't rely solely on the laser during live fire practice. I carry tape in my range bag and cover the laser for the first 50-70 rounds and use either sights or practice point shooting without the laser but usually get another 30 rounds or so downrange with the laser. Been doing this for several years and would endorse the use of a laser on any EDC that I would carry.
 
Last edited:
Good, thoughtful responses, so far.

A few other things to add: Target ID in the situations laid out are purely subjective. One must make millisecond threat assessments and transfer them just as rapidly into the proper reaction. Team/unit combat situations have only a passing resemblance to a one-on-one civilian scenario, but many of the same things do apply... fire control and being aware of background, innocents inside the "bubble", where your mate/partner is, etc. (Being a hunter since the age of 10 --- I'm closing in fast on 67--- I am quite aware of all this and teach the same.) Say you are walking to your car in a dim parking lot after shopping, dinner, or whatever, and you see someone approaching your personal zone. Do your antennae go up, jacked to max sensitivity? Do you scan the immediate area for evasive routes or the possibility of help from others? Do you assess this approaching person's physical attitude and kick into fight-or-flight mode? I think most of us on this forum all do to some degree. How many of us have been in just such a situation? (I see a lot of hands going up!) Paranoia is one thing, but I think that we all have a reliable sort of personal "radar" when it comes to threat detection.

As for a home invasion scenario in the middle of the night, it is only the two of us out in the country, with neighbors few and far between. I am not terribly concerned about shooting a passing innocent wandering through my home at 2 am when my Lady is sleeping right next to me. Whoever is there doesn't belong there, and by God, they won't be there long if I am able to do my job correctly, whether it be dark or light inside the house. If I were to hit the switch on a laser without first getting a fix on this invader's exact position, oh, woe to me and mine! Not acceptable. Target nailed, a few quick shots, THEN the flashlight for any kind of followup. All from cover, if possible. Rambo I ain't, and I want all the edge that I can muster. While all this is going on, there is also an assessment of "How many are there, and where are they?", of course.

Point shooting certainly takes a lot of practice, but it is really not all that difficult if you have a fair degree of hand-eye coordination, muscle memory and have the ability to visualize.

The ball is now back in play...
 
For the record, I'm a fan of CT laser sights. As mentioned, with a bit of practice, you can activate them or not, when you wish. I would like to make this observation ... How will the laser sight identify your position any more than the flashlight you use to identify your target in the dark? I recognize that many times we can see well enough to identify movement of a body in very low light, especially if our eyes are adjusted to the dark. We may also hear that movement. But exactly who is that body? It may be obvious, and it may not be, depending on the circumstances.

I sure hope not to give away presence or location until it's time for action, but I am not going to fire a shot unless I am certain of my target. I will use my flashlight for that, if only momentarily. Then it's time for the laser sight in low or no light!! I do not pay attention to the laser dot in good light.
 
IMHO it all depends upon the situation when and how to present a weapon.

A guy pulls a knife on me six feet away in a parking lot in daylight or inside my home at 3 am after the back door just got kicked in. Two different scenarios, two different responses.

I don't care for lasers but I do use the FBI cross with my flash light. I don't perm mount a light to my weapon because I may want to hold the light far to my side to give the BG something to shoot at away from my body, again depending upon the situation. I also have NS on my weapon. fwiw.

Just my .02
 
Back in 1969 or so (during the height of the Viet Nam war), the Army began a new training regimen they called "Quick Kill". It involved walking down a jungle path with the sights on your M-16 covered engaging pop-up targets. It seems that there was way too much aiming and not enough shooting during VC ambushes. This was a live fire course where you were using BB guns the first couple times thru..
 
KTHOM:

If you read carefully, use of a light would be AFTER initial firing. Night vision is shot at that point from muzzle flash anyway. AND you know where "friendlies" are located, preferably crouched down with eyeballs peeking over the mattress with THEIR nightstand gun in hand as backup. Anyone else in the house uninvited is fair game for swift and lethal consequences.

Flipping on a flashlight, even momentarily, kills your night vision. Your ability to focus on that laser is also compromised. And it is quite doubtful that anyone would pose for you just because they got hit with a light. I would be dropping for cover and putting rounds in the direction of that nice, shiny target. Think of yourself as the bad guy for a moment. What would YOU do if tagged by a light of any sort?

I am not condemning laser sights, per se... they are quite useful under many conditions, as are scopes and holo optics. If I could afford good night vision goggles, I'd probably use them; I am not averse to technology. But in the scenarios I have posed, laser sights would not cut it for me.

SHOULDAZAGGED:

After the CC class, my Lady told me that his reply was, "I would think it would be a personal preference, but I take your point seriously, and I tend to agree with you for that type of situation." Then he proceeded to ask who was training her and how often did she shoot, etc., as he did the others in the room. Some attendees had never even fired a gun, some shot once a month at the range, and the Commandos and Bubbas were kind of off the wall and barely paid attention during the entire session. They knew it all and just needed the class to get their license. Kind of a predictable cross-section.
 
Last edited:
For the average person/cop, when the stuff hits the fan and BG is in your face, your fight or flight instincts will take over and you will not be looking for sights, lasers, etc., you'll be acquiring your weapon, pointing it in the direction of the threat and shooting as fast as you can; likely shooting before you're on target. The more training and practice one receives, the better one will perform under such circumstances; however, no training can replicate or induce the fear one experiences in a life or death encounter. Generally speaking, sights and lasers are for target practice and offensive actions.
 
Last edited:
Fairbairn and Applegate trained a lot of WWII OSS men, SOE operatives, and Commandos in pointed fire and they killed a lot of Germans using that technique.


I got my dad's copy of, Kill or Get Killed when I was about 12 and later was trained in pointed fire by the USAF, as well as using two hands and sights. I read Cooper from about age 12, too, and Keith.


I found pointed fire to be pretty acurate on human slhouettes to 15 yards.


My son killed a man in Iraq using pointed fire, at about 20 feet. One shot from his Beretta M-9 did the job. That worthy had just been using his Dragunov sniper rifle on US troops from a rooftop and was caught as he tried to leave the building.


Generally, I favor using sights when possible, and I think Ayoob has a point when he writes about concentrating on the front sight. But I believe that pointed fire has its place, too, if you can do it right. As an experiment, I once took my Ruger Super Blackhawk, the usual model in stainless steel with 7.5-inch barrel, and shot targets to 15 yards, with pointed fire. I had previously done that with a Colt .45 auto and a Colt SAA with 4.75-inch bbl. It was actuaally easy to get hits in the kill zone, and I was using full power .44 Magnum loads in the Ruger.


I find it helps to lock your eyes on the target, on a specific part, like a pocket or button, and that helps aim. Your eyes aim your car on the road; it's the same principle.


But if shooting at a coiled snake, it helps to shoot the coiled mass if you don't have time for an aimed head shot. That can then be a quick follow-up after your first shot hopefully knocked the snake off enough to prevent an immediate bite.
 
Last edited:
2TALL79:

Sounds like the rest of The Green Machine borrowed this training from the Blue Teams, LRRPs/LRPs and Recondos. "Walks" would be set up in the bush outside of camp (reasonably safe) and they would do pop-ups and statics. Graduation from the course was a run through active VC/NVA turf. Quite often it would turn into the proverbial "Hits the Fan" situation.
 
Back in 1969 or so (during the height of the Viet Nam war), the Army began a new training regimen they called "Quick Kill". It involved walking down a jungle path with the sights on your M-16 covered engaging pop-up targets. It seems that there was way too much aiming and not enough shooting during VC ambushes. This was a live fire course where you were using BB guns the first couple times thru..

2Tall79: as late as February 1975 the Army was still teaching a version of the "Quick Kill" techniques in Basic Training - at Ft. Polk, LA, anyway. They did tape up your sights so you could not use them, and they made you mount the weapon in an odd (to me at least) manner where you had to mount the weapon so the butt was directly below your chin, and you were supposed to keep both of your eyes open. The instructors would not allow you to mount the weapon to your shoulder. We didn't have BB guns to use, just our M-16s with the taped up sights. I was shooting very well until we got to the "Quick Kill" portion of training, and I couldn't hit a darn thing using that technique. Finally, to make a point of how effective the Quick Kill technique was, and how it was superior to aimed/shoulder fire, one of the Drill Sergeants removed the tape from the sights of my rifle and he stood at the next position on the firing line with a taped sighted M-16 for a head-to-head competition. I don't know who was more surprised to find that I could actually tie him in competition. After that, I was allowed to shoot the Quick Kill course my way instead of the Army (correct) way. By the way, I qualified "Expert" with the rifle.

Regards,

Dave
 
IMHO, point shooting is a valuable skill acquired only with lots of concentration, technique and shots down range. The maximum effective range will vary from person to person. One has to determine 'their' effective range.

I don't care for any sort of electronic gadget on handguns. The problem is that range training becomes muscle memory and at the wrong time in the wrong place one habitual in using the electronic sight or light will take the time to use it just when that time spent well could make the difference in being the shooter or the shootee. Reaction time to activate the switch, reaction time to assess the result of turning on the switch and then reaction time to fire the handgun. For me, all that would easily add from 1 to 2 seconds to my time to get a shot off. I would much rather use that time in acquiring sights or a known point shooting position and getting a telling shot off.

The other aspect of electronic gadgets is just that. They are electronic/mechanical in nature and therefore are subject to failure. My HD handgun lies in a drawer for months on end. How do I KNOW that electronic gadget is going to work when I need it? I don't and that knowledge could well add even more reaction time.

Rex Applegate and I discussed point shooting a couple of times. His contention was that there were three positions for the handgun; down low to the point one can't see the gun held by one hand, up where one can see the gun but held well below the eye level with either one or two hands and at eye level. The maximum effective range goes up with each higher holding position. Rex had spent a considerable amount of time with Fairbairn teaching the Hong Kong Police force how to use point shooting during closeup encounters. Their number of officers successful in taking out bad guys went up considerably. ....
 
2Tall79: as late as February 1975 the Army was still teaching a version of the "Quick Kill" techniques in Basic Training - at Ft. Polk, LA, anyway. They did tape up your sights so you could not use them, and they made you mount the weapon in an odd (to me at least) manner where you had to mount the weapon so the butt was directly below your chin, and you were supposed to keep both of your eyes open. The instructors would not allow you to mount the weapon to your shoulder. We didn't have BB guns to use, just our M-16s with the taped up sights. I was shooting very well until we got to the "Quick Kill" portion of training, and I couldn't hit a darn thing using that technique. Finally, to make a point of how effective the Quick Kill technique was, and how it was superior to aimed/shoulder fire, one of the Drill Sergeants removed the tape from the sights of my rifle and he stood at the next position on the firing line with a taped sighted M-16 for a head-to-head competition. I don't know who was more surprised to find that I could actually tie him in competition. After that, I was allowed to shoot the Quick Kill course my way instead of the Army (correct) way. By the way, I qualified "Expert" with the rifle.

Regards,

Dave

an example of how not to do it......

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3sop7YZT9k[/ame] :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
 
Back
Top