THE VALUE OF POINT SHOOTING

[keith44spl]

Point Shooting????


Put me in the true believer corner!

I'm still kickin because I learned to point shoot early on.


Just think back a few decades when a fighting handgun's sight
were not glow in the dark or adjustable high ride - highly visible target
style of aiming devises.
On the Colt Gov't Model just a couple of lit'l bumps on the slide.
DA revolvers weren't much better with a low setting ramp

style blade (sometimes with a dab on model car paint for contrast)
not much to search out in the nite. The ergonomics of some handgun's
frames point purty natural for most folks. I like an arched mainspring
housing on my Gov't models to raise the point of impact to
make er shoot what I'm eyeballin'.
Colt SAAs and Smith & Wesson general shoot where I'm looking.


As that famous archer on the sport's channel sez, "Be the Arrow."


I say, "Be the Bullet."


What with a little time and practice, it's just another tool in the box!




.

 

[Rustyt1953]

As far as SD with pistols, I learned long ago that I have little use for sights, lights or lasers.

 

[codenamedave]

Depends on what you call "point shooting". Almost all of what I see called point shooting involves bringing the gun up to at least mid-torso height. At that point, the gun is prominent in your peripheral vision, so you are actually visually aligning the gun, just not with the sights, like Mr. Skins here.

This method has been thoroughly disproved as a quick & effective way to hit your target for many decades now, mostly thanks to Mr. Shirts, a.k.a. Jack Weaver. And remember these competitions were "Leatherslap" contests, which placed a premium on short & fast, the point shooting home field.

There have been many old time police officers, back when hip-shooting was still taught (I wonder why nobody does that anymore? Hmmm...) who couldn't understand why they missed their man at a few feet when they had qualified expert on the range. If being good at point shooting just requires more practice, I'll direct you back to Mr. Shirts, who ran the range for the LA County Sheriff's Department and had his fill of ammo and range time.

When this subject comes up I always mention Thell Reed, I'm sure old-timers will remember him. This guy would hip-shoot steel chickens at 50 yards with an SAA, but when he was shooting seriously, he brought the gun up to eye level and used both hands. If you feel you're better at hip shooting than someone who reliably hits 4 out of 5 chickens at 50 yards, please do continue.

The Laza Hatas always confused me, but just recently a report from someone re-qualifying for their LTC gave me some insight. People who are used to shooting at a range, where they start the firing process by picking up a gun off the bench, don't try to understand lasers, because they start off with their focus on the gun. IRL, your focus is on the threat. Switching focus back to the sights is one of the hardest things to teach & apply under stress. With a proper grip-activated laser, which is off until the gun's on target (same as a grip-activated light), when you bring the gun to bear, there's a nice dot on your target. You ride right past the whole "How much of a sight picture do I need?" debate and go straight to makin' holes.

Electronics failure? Ok, it's not like the irons fall off the gun when you install a laser. If there's no dot, then I just continue with the process. Whether that means a vague outline of the gun over the target, or a nice refined squared away sight picture, depends on the target and it's distance.

 

[keith44spl]

Jack Weaver's stance is a very viable platform for a lot of folks of
varying degrees of experience and skill levels.


I use it quite often my own self. But, I am also a student of Mr. Ed McGivern.


And back in the day could point or hip shoot a bit.....
Just enough to bring my carcass back alive.


Two S&Ws at once...Model 27 5" and a Model 25-5 5"


At fightin distance of 15' or so.










.

 

[Bkreutz]

In a self defense situation, with proper training and practice, being able to point shoot (not using the sights) will save your life, not being able to will get you killed. Most SD situations happen inside 10' and less than 2.5 seconds. To get proficient at point shooting requires a lot of proper practice. Find a good instructor, it just might save your life.

 

[badge]

I was trained to shoot off the front sight in a combat scenario and for me this has worked. For me at least I tried to listen to what the old hands said and did and use the best of their habits. Practice is a good start as well.

 

[susieqz]

i have been working on point shooting from the hip for 18 months.
it is harder to learn than bulls eye.
just like matt dillon, i can hit accurately out to 15 yards.
at 7 yards i can get a 4'' group.
since you don't raise the gun it is very very fast.
i can fire 3 times before you get into a 2hand stance.
no, i don't look at the gun. only the target.

 

[Rastoff]

The most important aspect about point shooting is distance. I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet.

The targets don't lie and there's a reason Jack Weaver whooped everyone. Slow hits are better than fast misses.

I know lots of guys who tout point shooting as superior to sighted shooting. However, when we're at the range and the targets are further than 5 yards, sighted shooting always seems to win the day.

At touching distance to 3 yards, yes, point shoot. Beyond 3 to about 5 yards, flash sight picture. Greater than 5 yards, sighted.

 

[susieqz]

sorry, rast. wrong.
you are basing your incorrect ideas on people who can't point shoot.
the difference between me n them is practice. i have fired more than 10,000 rounds from the hip n i'm accurate at reasonable range, out to 15 yards.
suggested reading:

fairborn
sykes
applegate
jordan

 

[ExcitableBoy]

CODENAMEDAVE/RASTOFF:

Besides being 95% wrong in your assumptions about point shooting --- firing from one position, target competition against aimed slow-fire, etc. --- you have strayed way into the weeds from the posed scenarios. Let's just turn out the lights on the late Jack Weaver, and see how that would have affected his aimed, slow-fire groups, hmmm? Even world champs can't punch bullseyes in the deep dark if they can't see their sights. I'm not trying to take anything away from the man, but the comparison isn't even apples and oranges... you're more into the octopus sushi and New York vanilla ice cream realm.

If you want to stay locked into the 2" group, paper-puncher target slot, with tall, gold dot Patridge sights, more power to you. Use all the lasers, strobes and holo sights on those ridiculously expensive custom pistols and revolvers to please your blessed little hearts. But it is a bit reprehensible for you to denigrate those of us who have some experience and know-how --- not to mention an open mind --- when it comes to point shooting, especially within the parameters that I initially presented, and which seems to be totally ignored on your part.

I started this thread with the purpose of exposing many of our fellow forum members to an alternative to gizmos and whizzbangs attached to defensive firearms, to perhaps glean a few new ideas for myself, and to get people to rethink SD/HD strategies and tactics.

So, with that, I thank everyone open to what I and others have suggested. And I hope that I have opened a few closed minds.

 

[Lt JL]

in a fight, see your front sight. Don't aim, just align, point, and shoot. Nobody in a real gunfight does Dodge City dueling. Shoot, run, shoot, duck, shoot again, move again fast. A guy trying to aim won't hit you. Up close, belly shoot; hold yours at belly height and shoot him in the belly. Twice. Been there, Done that.

 

[Cyrano]

Wow!! GREAT thread. I learned a lot tonight I think tomorrow I'm going to the range with the 22 conversion unit on my Colt 45, and burn up a lot of rounds trying out this stuff. I know it will take a lot more than one range trip to get proficient, though.

 

[susieqz]

cyr, i'm not sure you can learn this on a range if you have to shoot at distance. when i started, i was thinking like bulls eye n tried 7 yards.
i consistantly was a couple feet off.
i had to start at 2 yards then only move up a yard when i got good at that distance.
it takes time but is fun if you enjoy practice.

 

[DWalt]

There's a well-known book on combat pistolcraft by Bill Jordan called "No Second Place Winner". It's been around for many years. He has a lot to say about point shooting as a close-range defensive tactic and you might want to read it. I think electronic copies of it can be found free on the internet.

 

[Dennis]

I definitely need to start working on the point and shoot. Especially from the waist one-handed.
My nightstand pistol is a sig 226 with a Light laser mounted on the rail. Has the rocker switch which falls under my off thumb. bright light and laser. The laser is sighted for the far wall in my bedroom.
With the laser all i have to do is put it on the largest piece of anatomy and start pulling the trigger.
Yes the light is bright. But with all the younger folks in my house, I want to id the threat.
I don't have to acquire sights with the laser.
it gets checked EVERY time i hit the rack.
BUT. It has night-sites and is a natural pointer in my hand.
The fail-safe is the natural point of aim and ambient light from street lights thru the curtains.
Works for me. At home.
On the street? I'd better start practicing one-handed hip-shooting.
YMMV

 

[ExcitableBoy]

Friends, I wasn't going to post again on this subject, but...


The easiest first step in training for point shooting/instinct shooting takes very little time out of your day and costs absolutely nothing. You don't even really need a pistol in your hand:

1 --- Focus on any object you wish.
2 --- With your shooting hand, make a gun with your thumb and finger. Sweep, thrust or poke (your choice) the barrel (finger) of your imaginary gun at that object without bringing it to eye level. NO SIGHTING!
3 --- Keeping your "gun" perfectly stationary, if possible, lean down and take a peek with your dominant eye at where your "barrel" is pointing. Your finger, if not dead on the spot on which you focused, should be within a couple of degrees one way or the other.
4 --- Repeat, repeat, repeat...
5 --- Try other "gun" presentations and repeat, repeat, repeat...

You may be amazed at the accuracy which can be achieved in this simple exercise. If you are satisfied with the results, place a real (unloaded) handgun in that same hand and repeat the same procedure... many times.

Congratulations... you have just graduated point shooting kindergarten (Here's your diploma!), and you may travel to the safe, live-fire venue of your choice. However, I would not recommend any quick-draw stuff just yet, Grasshopper. Do a lot of reps with gun in hand and take your time, at first. Speed and fluidity will come later. Shoot at a close target, say maybe ten feet. When you're happy with those results stretch the distance a bit. More reps...

When confident and comfortable with your progress, only then would I recommend drawing from your holster and firing on target. Feel free to experiment and find what works best for you. Choose a gun or two with which you are most comfortable, arbitrarily pick a carry position, determine the most workable holster for you, the best concealment clothing, various presentations, etc.

Enough has been said about advanced concepts, like SD/HD positions, postures and tactics, so I think you can figure all that out at your own pace.

Be safe.

 

[rwsmith]

Couple things. First of all this is......

This is a really priceless, meaty thread. Lots of good stuff here.


'G-Men'- used to train from the hip

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaiGSDiaI_w[/ame]

(just fast forward over the letter)


I had an 1894 carbine style bb gun as a kid and was really mean shooting it from the hip. I wonder if I could do that with a lever .22 or similar? Probably not anymore.

 

[kthom]

From experience, I do know this! Every situation is different. They might be similar, but they are all different. It's a good idea to have a plan, but you'd better be ready to accomodate changes to that plan very quickly. What works in one situation may have very little chance of working in any other. There are just to many variables. We gotta be able to do whatever any situation calls for.

I never try to be too critical of what works for another person, as long as it works for them, whether on purpose or somewhat because it just worked out that way. I can tell you that I have been very fortunate in times past. What I did in some situations didn't bear much resemblance to what I thought I would do (in retrospect).

I do know that what is important is that whatever equipment we use, we had better be very familiar with it and be able to make it operate without much conscious thought. When the stinky stuff hits the fan, I guarantee we will not be giving much conscious thought and will be operating on past training and experience. We can get practice, and it's only valuable when enough of it is done to result in actions that are pretty well programmed into our head. Lots of practice is done that doesn't relate much to actual SHTF circumstances. Actual experience, on the other hand, is something we fortunately do not get much chance to acquire! We can kinda learn from the experiences of others and that can help, but what will we actually do when we are in a similar situation? I can say that I have been fortunate to have survived when I was standing gawking when I should have been moving! It's also been my experience that I did a lot more reacting than acting. Unless you are the aggressor, you have no real idea what the aggressor is going to do or when he's (she's) going to do it! We almost always start out behind the curve because much of what we will do is in reaction to what someone else has already started to do!

I'm not being critical of anything that's been said here. I'm just saying that the reality of any situation is pretty much a law unto itself, and all of us have somewhat different responses that we may not be able to know about till after the smoke clears. It's a very serious business. Lot's of things we do to our tools may actually get in the way of getting the job done, but boy do they look cool! But each of us must decide whether or not what we do and what we carry and how we use it has a good chance of actually working and making it easier to get the job done. And we have to be very honest with ourselves before we get to locked in to what we think we will do in a situation. The most important thing that needs to work is me!!!

 

[codenamedave]

CODENAMEDAVE/RASTOFF:

Besides being 95% wrong in your assumptions about point shooting --- firing from one position, target competition against aimed slow-fire, etc. --- you have strayed way into the weeds from the posed scenarios. Let's just turn out the lights on the late Jack Weaver, and see how that would have affected his aimed, slow-fire groups, hmmm? Even world champs can't punch bullseyes in the deep dark if they can't see their sights. I'm not trying to take anything away from the man, but the comparison isn't even apples and oranges... you're more into the octopus sushi and New York vanilla ice cream realm.

If you want to stay locked into the 2" group, paper-puncher target slot, with tall, gold dot Patridge sights, more power to you. Use all the lasers, strobes and holo sights on those ridiculously expensive custom pistols and revolvers to please your blessed little hearts. But it is a bit reprehensible for you to denigrate those of us who have some experience and know-how --- not to mention an open mind --- when it comes to point shooting, especially within the parameters that I initially presented, and which seems to be totally ignored on your part.

I started this thread with the purpose of exposing many of our fellow forum members to an alternative to gizmos and whizzbangs attached to defensive firearms, to perhaps glean a few new ideas for myself, and to get people to rethink SD/HD strategies and tactics.

So, with that, I thank everyone open to what I and others have suggested. And I hope that I have opened a few closed minds.

- No assumptions, just stated fact. Point shooting doesn't work best in real life, otherwise every police department would still be teaching it.

- Turning out the lights: Exactly my point. Shooting from eye level using both hands will align you more reliably on your target than point shooting, whether or not you can see the sights. It's the difference between riding a bicycle and riding a unicycle.
(Two handed at eye level is what the deal is, not in particular the Weaver Stance.)

- Nobody said anything about bullseye or "the 2" group, paper-puncher target slot, with tall, gold dot Patridge sights", now you're just making stuff up. Life tip: It doesn't help your credibility.

- Once again: Aimed fire beats point shooting even in circumstances that would seem to specifically favor point shooting, that being extremely close and fast. The more stressful the situation, the more the technique that was shaky to begin with will fall apart, much more rapidly than one that was solid. Inside of arm's reach, then yes point shooting works fine.

- "Denigrate"? I think the word you're looking for is "debate". If you can't stand to have your prejudices questioned, then don't ask for input. And I don't know who told you I have no experience or know-how, or haven't tried point v. aimed fire, or haven't been in a gunfight, but you might want to move them down a little on your reliable source list.

Here is where you started:

My thinking, and self-training, on this technique is that sometimes you just won't be able to pull up and get a good sight picture... it could be too late for you if you don't get off a fast accurate shot or two. And, on a dark night, or in a dark room scenario, aligning sights is pretty much a no-go, even with Trijicons (Yes, I've had them.), or whatever, because you can't see the target anyway. But you CAN see shadow movement and hear where the bad guy might be.

Shooting paper in a static position is all well and good for primary firearms training, learning gun control and marksmanship (I do my share), but for serious up-close self-defense stuff I practice/train a lot of point shooting with all of my CC guns.

Okay, brothers and sisters, I would love to hear from you. Anyone else use the above techniques described? Different methods toward the same goal? Flashlights/lasers vs. staying behind cover and springing a big surprise?

- If it's dark, then a light might help, no?

- If you're planning on shooting at an unidentified shadow or sound, well, good luck in court. I doubt even a jury full of gun owners would approve of that. Heck, you'd be hard-pressed to find any that would be okay with that when hunting, let alone potentially taking human life.

- Why ask people for different methods when you're just going to attack them with personal insults? You even specified "Flashlights/lasers".





For those who say you just have to practice, again, do you think you practice more, and more seriously, than an LEO who ran the range for a department bigger than the armies of a lot of nations? Or a guy who hip-shoots chickens at 50 yards?



Here's a lil' anecdote from somebody who you'd think would be Mr. Quick Draw & Point Shoot, and an exemplar to fans of ol' timey shootin'.

Wild Bill Hickok, in a fairly small, darkened bar room, beset by five attackers, a perfect match for the point-shooting crowd, right? Did he say he drew faster than ever, or that there was no time to aim? Nope. He said "I never aimed so deliberately in my life."

 

[Rastoff]

This is all fun to talk about on the internet, but it's more fun to actually do it at the range. Come on out. You can point shoot and I'll use my sights. Any course of fire you want. Low light, bright sun, out to 25 yards, 3 yards, kneeling, standing, prone, barricade, no-shoot targets,...whatever.

No closed mind here. As I said, which some seem to have missed, point shooting has its place. It's just not the only way.


Addendum:
Just for the record, Jack Weaver wasn't shooting slow-fire bullseye targets. He was competing against the best of the fast draw shooters of his time. He used his sights and beat them all, starting from the holster.