thoughts on CCW

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This seems to be a topic with nearly as many debates upon its subtopics as politics, race and religion combined.

Probably the first thing to look at is the person you may need to shoot.
This person comes from a pool of specimens that includes some that would live gut their mothers for $20 in order to score another hit of crack cocaine. We could go farther down the rabbit hole into their criminal careers where they have escalated in their ruthlessness to cover some of the most repulsive subject matter most honest men have never conceived, and may do well not to lest it darkens your soul.
the bottom line is that the man you someday may need to shoot places no value upon your life, and will regard your cries for mercy as weakness to be exploited and toyed with.

He is why we choose to carry a firearm .. but what firearm? and how do we carry it?
Go ahead and choose your arms.
larger calibers are generally better but usually come in larger guns.
You will need about 1500 rounds of ammo.
clean your new weapon and take it to the range with the 1500 rounds.
disreguard malfunctions other than outright breakage through the first 400.
from the last jam, count your rounds.
we need a string of 500 without malfunction in order to deem it reliable enough for carry. we also need to see it make the full 1500 without breakage.
at no time during this 1500 round string will you clean, or oil this weapon aside from the cleaning you gave it before you start this string.
This may seem abusive at first blush, but the act of carrying it is worse. on your person it will gather dirt and grit, as well as corrosion from your sweat.
if it cannot provide you with the reliability of 500 flawless rounds it is not reliable enough for carry .. if it can't chug through the full 1500, it cannot tolerate the dirt, grit, and corrosion of carry.
ask no less than this from any arm you wish to carry.
give it all the TLC ya want after this if it makes it. It will have earned it.
if not, clean it anyhow, as this is just good form for an arm your about to sell.

"A 22 in the hand is worth 2 44's in the safe"
it has a nice ring to it .. don't you think?
refer to the first paragraph describing the person you may have to shoot. The 22 in your hand will likely be in his when its over. He's seasoned in the ways of violence, you are not, that's just the way it is. Use enough gun. it reduces recidivism, which is the largest factor in the ills of society.

Larger calibers generally work better than smaller ones.
where 380 is often regarded as the minimum, I rail against this notion. there is no way you can logically demonstrate that it is ballisticaly superior to a 40 cal, 357, or 45
most accounts of its performance come from a cold slab in the morgue where theres no telling how much the person accomplished while wounded or it comes from the street where the perp gave up with no shots fired. Neither tell you what you really need to know. That is, did it put the attacker on the ground before he could do harm?
the lack of these accounts might be telling of its real performance.
The gun industry is actively developing many pistols around the concealed carry market. The work done and feats accomplished have placed major calibers into compact and sub compact pistols ... look into these.
there is less reason to seek a 380 today than just a few years ago. While many attempts would fail reliability standards, others are quite hopeful.

Chamber loaded or empty?
As much as I preach about reliability. only God and the four winds know how your gunfight will play out. but in any case, the first shot is absolutely the most important. your pistol may fail on the next shot, or jam while trying to cycle the first round. carry with a loaded chamber. You only get that one round you can absolutely bank on if its there.

Guns for ladies ....
If we take the way back machine to 1945 where we find pictures of survivors of Auschwitz, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki ... in those photos, you will see women. Soft and gentle as they may be, they are not nearly as fragile as many seem to think. Some here have daughters in the military. As far as I am aware, there is no -W designation on any weapons system to denote suitability for women. If she trains with an M4 .. it is identical to the one issued to your son, If issued an M9, again, it is the same issued to your son. If assigned to the M2 50 cal ... it's not chambered in 22.
the only real issue here at all is that it fits her smaller hands.
this may mean that a 40 cal is her upper limit ... but don't take that as any sort of limitation on power.
My sister could outshoot many here with my 629 and full house 44 magnums.
ladies need a defensive solution more than us guys do. get her behind a gun that will get her home after her darkest day, we owe them that for all we put em though.

Accuracy ...
some say pie plate .. others are more demanding.
I think it should be able to put em all into a business card at 10 yards. this gives you the ability to be surgical with it if your situation permits. At no time is accuracy an excessive trait.
 
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Looks like you put a lot of thought into your post.
I know a lady who worked in a Big City ER for several years. She conceal carrys a 45acp compact 1911. WHY? In her experiance (From Several Years Ago) gun shot victims do not normally walk out of the hospital bandaged up the next morning shot with a 45.
Sage Advice I am sure. Bigger Drain Holes are better than smaller ones normally.

Modern Self Defense Ammunition that meets FBI requirements will probably perform well enough in most chamberings with a couple things to consider. The consider part being impact velocity. Big Difference betwen a Full Size Service Pistol and a Subcompact that carrys great in bullet impact speed. So some research is probably in order to see what performs best in a short barrel handgun.
Ammunition Terminal Performance has came a long way the last few years.

Everyone who conceal carries needs to do a little thinking. I call it Personal Risk Assesment. How likely are you to encounter a real threat in your day to day life?

I live about 10 miles down the road from Mayberry in a lightly populated rural area. I wave at everyone I meet driving down the road. I know almost all my neighbors by name. In my area anyone who lives within about 5 miles is a neighbor. The computer puked on my marked Patrol Car several years ago. I am road side with the hood up waiting on a tow truck. Believe it or not 2 out of 3 people driving by stopped to offer assistence if I needed it. Where I live my Personal Risk Assesment is at the very low end of the Scale.

Now if you lived in Detroit, Chicago, St Louis, Washington, or several other large cities, you might have the Risk Assessment Meter PEGGED OUT on the High End.

I feel well armed with a 5 shot snub where I live. If I lived in Detroit and had to be out after dark, I would feel reasonably well armed with something that said General Electric on the side and had a Back Pak power supply, and ammunition carrier.

As was said above not everyone shoots Toy Size handguns well. Any Ultra Lite handgun chambered in any caliber deemed satisfactory to stop a conflict is not going to be much fun to shoot at all.

To be continued

Back from Town:

The 357 Magnum J Frame airweights come to mind. A handgun like the 340 M&P will get the job done with 357 Magnum ammunition, but very few will want to shoot much 357 out of one.

Where I live, and being retired I belt carry about 95% of the time. I carry revolvers about 95% of the time also. I have several Snub Revolvers to choose from. At the moment I have a 2.25 Inch SP101 in 38 Special on my belt loaded with Speer 135 grain GDHP ammunition. Do I feel undergunned carrying a 38 Special with only 5 rounds and a single reload? NO
I would not feel undergunned with my 442 Pro with the same ammunition either. BUT my SP101's and my K Frame snubs are much easier to shoot well.

In my opinion being able to shoot what you are carrying accurately is probably the First concern.
A good hit with a 380 is going to do more good than a poor hit with a 40.

IF you shoot your concealed carry handgun enough to truely be good with it, you will probably have done some equipment adjusting along the way. While I shoot my 442 Pro way better than average, I can put more accurate fire on target quicker with a steel handgun like my SP101. It is Just Plain More Shootable.

Just My 2 Cents

Bob
 
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A lot of thought went into this definitely but also a lot of feel good no proof stuff as well. Seems like it was a run around to proclaim 45 the best.

Our organs, except for the brain, are very very good at stretching. Under 2000 fps bullets create more of stretch cavity than a permanent one. Often times you can't see a difference in bullet cavities from 32 to 45. Our tissue stretches and them bounces back. This of course is why most people carry HP ammo. It's about ammo quality and shot placement. Otherwise you should be carrying a 10mm or a 50ae or a 45 win mag. But definitely at least a 10mm considering that it has more energy at 100 yards than the 45 has at the muzzle!

There was a story here about 10 years ago where a highway accident led to a fist fight which led to a shooting. One guy chased the other down and dumped a mag of 45acp into him. The recipient took it in stride and proceeded to fist fight again. By your understanding this would be a puny round.

Garbage in, garbage out. Buy Wolf fmj for SD and get bad results. Buy Speer Gold dot (or any QUALITY ammo) and get equivalent results.

This is just 2 seconds of searching. ..
Watch "Officer Jared Reston talks about when he was shot" . He was shot 7 times (a few hit the vest) with a 230 gr 45acp. The first shot was to his face! He shoots the perp a few times and only kills him with 3 shots to the head at point blank!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArDRg5SkuT0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

BTW just for some random useless knowledge. There has even been a guy who survived 2 (TWO) ATOMIC BOMBS!!! 2 of them. And he lived well into his 80s

I don't mean to dump on your thread but some things are more "feeling" then reality. A 45 is a good round but it's no better than any other quality ammo/caliber with the right shot placement.

Practice practice practice practice and then practice some more

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 
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I tend to think assessment in general.
In a situation like yours, I think I'd gravitate towards a 629.
being low risk, your more likely to use it to finish the job on an animal that a Chevy started. In the mean time, it just looks great on the belt.
I'm sure counter arguments could be made given further thought, but then, that achieves a good objective ... thought, on a serious matter.
 
There was a story here about 10 years ago where a highway accident led to a fist fight which led to a shooting. One guy chased the other down and dumped a mag of 45acp into him. The recipient took it in stride and proceeded to fist fight again. By your understanding this would be a puny round.
and a 380 would have been superior ... how?

wheres the no proof feel good you speak of?
heck .. where's the feel good?
Auschwitz was not a luxury Spa.
 
No but It has nothing to do with this.

By "feel good" I mean people make themselves feel good thinking a large cal equals superior "stopping power", as people call it.

A 380 wouldn't have been superior but that wasn't the point. It shows that the 45 is not superior

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 
No but It has nothing to do with this.

By "feel good" I mean people make themselves feel good thinking a large cal equals superior "stopping power", as people call it.

A 380 wouldn't have been superior but that wasn't the point. It shows that the 45 is not superior

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Some people just won't let it go...(caliber bashing, er, uh, I mean debate)
 
No but It has nothing to do with this.

By "feel good" I mean people make themselves feel good thinking a large cal equals superior "stopping power", as people call it.

A 380 wouldn't have been superior but that wasn't the point. It shows that the 45 is not superior

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

it does not show that it is not superior either, that trait shows up in in larger cross sections. the real question is how superior is it, which is often over estimated.
I found myself elsewhere in a gun debate under a forum entirely unrelated to guns, which might indicate just how far CCW is integrating ...
I'll copy and paste what I told these largely non gun folks about the lack of truth in advertising.
I figured I'd get back to this one.
I fired a lot of calibers into a lot of things over a lot of years.
don't underestimate cloth. I found old clothing to be an outstanding bullet trap filler.
will winter gear stop a 380 .. no .. but it will slow it spending a larger portion of its energy budget than most would think. It's already running on a tight budget the way it is.
when using a 380 or less, the ability to use it surgically is required. Your target zones are quite small. Between the eyes, through the throat, heart, and knee caps.
in the ear also if its an available target.
as we add the energy of larger calibers, we add available zones to exploit.
the entire length of the spine a triangular zone over the thoracic cavity, pelvis and the entire cranium.

pistols are not the wonder weapons they are believed to be.
One of the biggest disappointments I've seen is the 9MM
On one occasion a few friends of mine were startled by a doe that sprang 4 feet in front of them. they both drew and ran their guns dry in reaction.
I was a few yards back with a 44 where I could more calmly assess the situation.
I knew that doe was full of 9mm and 22 cal holes and would eventually bleed out .. somewhere.
so I finished the job as she bolted across a field, with a well placed shot to the base of the skull. (I'd call that a mixture of luck and skill ... with luck the greater part)
At this point we had 3 calibers in a single significant specimen.
during examination I was struck by how little sign of tissue upset there was with the 9MM. they may as well have been puncture wounds made with a 3/8" dia spike. Entry wounds were very difficult to locate, even after skinning the subject, there were no bloodshot circles, as one would expect to find, to help locate the 9MM hits .. we just found spent bullets in the carcass.
the 22 wounds were easier to find. after skinning. the dark red entry wounds were plainly visible .. although much smaller than we were accustomed to.
the 44 wound was easy to locate. it was wherever you saw shattered bone.
surprisingly, however, damage to surrounding muscle tissue was far less than anticipated
the 9mm got 9 confirmed hits, with one a though and through, and only two others making it to organs. the 22 actually did slightly better with 8 hits and 6 in organs, but just barely.
the 44 magnum with one hit was obviously the most destructive, shattering a significant amount of bone and destroying the central nervous system.
This may sound impressive in print. Keep in mind I have to describe it somehow.
I think the shattered bone fragments did as much of the wet work here as the bullet itself. Had I not raised to taking a head shot at the last moment I believe the lengthwise wound through the body from a center of mass hit would have resulted in a dramatic stomach ache and perhaps some shortness of breath for the doe to enjoy while it died a slow and lingering death.

Handgun calibers suck .. perhaps with the exception of the 460 and 500 magnums .. they all suck.
some a little less than others but they still suck and should never be over estimated.

this went on to cutting X's into the points of 380's where I told them you'd be better off loading hollowpoints with hard drugs and hope for an overdose.

you might be able to accuse me of a few things.
overestimation of a gun and lack of research are not among them
 
In my opinion being able to shoot what you are carrying accurately is probably the First concern.
A good hit with a 380 is going to do more good than a poor hit with a 40.

I see you've extended your contribution a bit.
at the local range I see the vast majority popping away at targets set around 15 feet, printing groups you might be able to cover with a 5 gallon bucket, the better ones seem to come back with groupings that could go into an ice creme pail.

The lower on the list of calibers we go, the more they demand surgical shot placement. They are largely incapable of meeting this demand with any caliber.
Most seem to be good folks that I really would like to see prevail should they find themselves in a gunfight.
In some cases I wonder if they could get good enough placement to be effective with a rocket launcher.
on a side note I often find it amusing to run a target back to the far wall at 25 yards. shoot a string of 12 44 mags into a 2" - 3" group .. then bring it up to the 15 foot line so it can be seen by all, then watch the mall ninjas pack up and leave.

The thing is, as I read between the lines of the trends in this board, I think we are seeing an upward trend of new CCW people who would likely fit the description of the unwashed masses I see at the range.
they don't understand that the 380 demands the seasoned hands to back it up. Id much rather see them with a more potent caliber that opens up the options of the larger, but harder to effect target zones.
 
on a side note I often find it amusing to run a target back to the far wall at 25 yards. shoot a string of 12 44 mags into a 2" - 3" group .. then bring it up to the 15 foot line so it can be seen by all, then watch the mall ninjas pack up and leave.

Well hello Martin Riggs :cool:
 
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Venom, not trying to be ugly, just trying to gain some insight into your actual gun fighting experience. You sound as if you've been to "the big city and seen the elephant" many times.Your post is very informative and I will study it in great depth to compare your observations to my own meager experience.Thanks &Regards, Nick
 
Venom, not trying to be ugly, just trying to gain some insight into your actual gun fighting experience. You sound as if you've been to "the big city and seen the elephant" many times.Your post is very informative and I will study it in great depth to compare your observations to my own meager experience.Thanks &Regards, Nick

most of my knowledge revolves around what bullets of various calibers and various designs do when they run into various things ... name the object, I probably shot it or witnessed it being shot
 
There was much left out. Much more.

It's been said that the software between the ears is more important than the hardware. A bigger bullet or better shot placement will never substitute for lack of thinking and understanding the use of deadly force.

The gun world is full of people that THINK they're ready for anything. They aren't. And you can't convince them otherwise. I've seen them. Talked to them. And it's no use. They haven't bothered to study and research the law, use of force, disparity of force, etc etc etc...... They don't care. They think that in their own little world, things will happen as they expect it too. These are the people that I'm afraid of. The very people who will use deadly force at the wrong time or shoot a bystander.

If you notice, nobody ever discusses software. It's always a caliber war or which gun is best. People are so misguided in thinking that the perfect gun or caliber will make up for all their short comings and their failure to prepare properly.

Each of us that carries MUST choose a caliber in a specific size of gun that we can REPEATEDLY SHOOT ACCURATELY and QUICKLY and are willing to carry daily. They MUST seek quality training and frequent practice. They MUST research, learn, and remember laws regarding carrying a gun and the use of force.

Mindset, attitude, the ability to think and react quickly, and being able to be flexible enough to adapt will save the day.

I can't explain it any better than that.

I carry a 9MM. It's the smallest caliber I will carry year round. I can hit with the 9MM accurately and repeatedly. The only exception is a 1911, it's a 45 ACP that I sometimes carry. And I don't care what someone else thinks and I don't care what they carry.

We and only we will have to answer for the decisions we make. Choose wisely.
 
Venom
I am the President of the local Sportsman's Club, and have been for 25 Plus years, and a Board Member before that since 1981. We shoot a Defensive Pistol Match Bi Monthly on Saturdays, with a Reactive Steel match on the off month. On The Following Sunday we shoot ICORE Revolver.
We have a BUG Division in both Defensive Pistol and Unofficially in the ICORE Match. I am the one who designes the Match Stages. I set up the ICORE mostly Practical Tactical, instead of Run & Gun.

My Core Group of handgun shooters are almost all Concealed Carryers. Almost all of them look at our handgun matchs as practice sessions to help them improve. When we get a new shooter to start showing up, you can see them getting better almost monthly.

Our monthly match will normally have a turnout of 15 or so shooters, but we shoot all day long. Almost everyone enters multiple times. For example I might shoot my 4 Inch 686 in SSR/Classic, I might shoot my 4 Inch 625 in ESR/Limited, and I may also shoot my SP101, K Frame Snub, or 442 in BUG Division. And I may even run my 617 or LCR22 n Rimfire Division. I even drag out my Colt 1911 now and again just to stay up to speed running it.

Everyone who conceal carrys in our area should be lined up to shoot the match every month. They are not. The Sad part is they really need to be shooting with us monthly. Your assessment of the accuracy of those who do not shoot regularly is spot on.

Cops need to be on the list also. In the sticks they are not required to shoot any practice ammunition. The Sheriffs Dept went one round about 3 years without Qualifying. Pitiful.

It is impossible to get Cops to show up for a match also. They will get their tail handed to them by a Civilian, and they do not like it at all. You would think the simple solution would be to work at getting better?? Wrong, the answer is do not show up, and you will not get beat. :(

An Old Gunfighter once said that Speed Was Fine, But Accuracy was Final. He had that right. No substitute for accuracy, you cannot miss fast enough to win a gunfight.

Stay Safe


Bob
 
There was much left out. Much more.

It's been said that the software between the ears is more important than the hardware. A bigger bullet or better shot placement will never substitute for lack of thinking and understanding the use of deadly force.

The gun world is full of people that THINK they're ready for anything. They aren't. And you can't convince them otherwise. I've seen them. Talked to them. And it's no use. They haven't bothered to study and research the law, use of force, disparity of force, etc etc etc...... They don't care. They think that in their own little world, things will happen as they expect it too. These are the people that I'm afraid of. The very people who will use deadly force at the wrong time or shoot a bystander.

If you notice, nobody ever discusses software. It's always a caliber war or which gun is best. People are so misguided in thinking that the perfect gun or caliber will make up for all their short comings and their failure to prepare properly.

Each of us that carries MUST choose a caliber in a specific size of gun that we can REPEATEDLY SHOOT ACCURATELY and QUICKLY and are willing to carry daily. They MUST seek quality training and frequent practice. They MUST research, learn, and remember laws regarding carrying a gun and the use of force.

Mindset, attitude, the ability to think and react quickly, and being able to be flexible enough to adapt will save the day.

I can't explain it any better than that.

I carry a 9MM. It's the smallest caliber I will carry year round. I can hit with the 9MM accurately and repeatedly. The only exception is a 1911, it's a 45 ACP that I sometimes carry. And I don't care what someone else thinks and I don't care what they carry.

We and only we will have to answer for the decisions we make. Choose wisely.
I recall backing you up on the software portion quite a bit in our history here.

its the accurately and quickly part you mention, more to the point the accurately part, that I have not seen since I moved here, save one old timer that knew his way around his 357 about as well as I did my 44. we got so tied up with trying to one up each other we nearly missed out on the frustration of the mall ninja with an AR we were humiliating with our old fashioned wheel guns. I should have gotten his name and number .. he was fun to shoot with:D as I think of it, I kinda wonder if the laser on the AR held zero after he slammed it into the case.

Thing is, most there are good people I'd like to see remaining on this side of the turf. they lack the skill for a mouse gun and will rely upon spray and pray into a 5 gallon bucket sized area. there's not a whole lot we can do about it and it don't mean their right to life should be revoked because of it, though it might mean we should keep an eye out for places to dive for cover if they ever have to defend that right.
I saw a pocket pistol lock up stone cold hopelessly tight after it was dropped in a stream. I doubt many of em would make the 1500 round reliability test.
 
My Caliber Can Beat Up Your Caliber

Invariably, threads often wander off into the caliber wars. I happen to use a .45 ACP, several 9mms and two .38 Specials for carry and home defense. I'm not married to any one caliber. They all work.

That said, those of you who think the .45 ACP is a death ray that ranks right up there with sliced bread and tighty whities, you may want to google up Frank Gusenberg. To save you the trouble, he was one of the victims of the Saint Valentine's Day Massacre. He died the next day following the infamous shooting but he took at least eleven and maybe thirteen (depending on your source) .45 ACP slugs in his back fired from Thompsons. Yet, I have full faith in the .45 ACP as well as my 9mms and .38s to get the job done in the event the feces interfaces with the oscillating ventilator.

Some people drop stone dead from .22s and 25s while others run off with a truckload of pricey ammo under their hide. There are simply too many variables at play. All we can look to is the averages and, on average, they all work pretty good but occasionally fail.
 
Invariably, threads often wander off into the caliber wars. I happen to use a .45 ACP, several 9mms and two .38 Specials for carry and home defense. I'm not married to any one caliber. They all work.

That said, those of you who think the .45 ACP is a death ray that ranks right up there with sliced bread and tighty whities, you may want to google up Frank Gusenberg. To save you the trouble, he was one of the victims of the Saint Valentine's Day Massacre. He died the next day following the infamous shooting but he took at least eleven and maybe thirteen (depending on your source) .45 ACP slugs in his back fired from Thompsons. Yet, I have full faith in the .45 ACP as well as my 9mms and .38s to get the job done in the event the feces interfaces with the oscillating ventilator.

Some people drop stone dead from .22s and 25s while others run off with a truckload of pricey ammo under their hide. There are simply too many variables at play. All we can look to is the averages and, on average, they all work pretty good but occasionally fail.

and in theory it is also possible to to mount an effective defense with a pellet gun. if they can't see, they can't fight.
the requisite skill to do so would be the ability to toss a few quarters into the air and hit them, while standing on an anthill full of fire ants to bring a proper level of stress into the mix.
precious few in this world could do it even without the element of stress.
furthermore, the use of protective lenses defeats the system
 

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