Timers for SD practice

[oldman45]

Does anyone use a timer in practicing for rapid draw and shooting?

I see where a timer going off to alert someone to draw and fire would be beneficial in practicing for unexpected self defense events.

I also understand that people these days are not fast draw cowboys from the wild west. Yet having a gun does not mean being able to get to a gun, moreso when one is nevervous, excited or just plain scared.

Past that, if one is fast enough, does that mean they can hit a target that is possibly shooting at them.

I live and work a lot on instincts. When I am serving paper on people (only have to do it a couple times a month) if things does not look right, I get some assistance out there.

Just how many of those here practice common self defense shooting? How do you do it? Would or does a timer help?

 

[OKFC05]

All practical pistol competitions are on the clock. I use PACT, but CED are probably more popular.

It is very revealing and sometimes a reality check to just go shoot an IDPA match against the timer. Everyone is a legend in his own mind until the timer goes off.

My favorite drill is draw and fire 3 shots in 3 sec, on the move.

 

[cshoff]

Does anyone use a timer in practicing for rapid draw and shooting?

I see where a timer going off to alert someone to draw and fire would be beneficial in practicing for unexpected self defense events.

I also understand that people these days are not fast draw cowboys from the wild west. Yet having a gun does not mean being able to get to a gun, moreso when one is nevervous, excited or just plain scared.

Past that, if one is fast enough, does that mean they can hit a target that is possibly shooting at them.

I live and work a lot on instincts. When I am serving paper on people (only have to do it a couple times a month) if things does not look right, I get some assistance out there.

Just how many of those here practice common self defense shooting? How do you do it? Would or does a timer help?

I probably have a slight advantage over most being how I am an instructor and live on the same property that my range facilities are located on. That allows me a little more flexibility in being able to get to the range for regular practice, as well as "forcing" me to be present on the range and in the classroom in a professional capacity at least twice a month. In addition, the fact that I own my range allows me to set up scenarios and target placements that would be impossible on a public range or on most pay ranges, as well as allowing me the option of taking as many shots as I wish in whatever succession I deem necessary, with nearly any small arms platform I have at my disposal.

A shot timer is great tool for the defensive shooter, IMO. It allows a person to evaluate their performance, and their progression as a shooter. When used with standardized skills tests, they can help a shooter (or instructor) pinpoint areas of their skillset that need improvement and then provide the shooter with valuable feedback by which to track the improvements he or she has made.

 

[jeffrey]

All practical pistol competitions are on the clock. I use PACT, but CED are probably more popular.

It is very revealing and sometimes a reality check to just go shoot an IDPA match against the timer. Everyone is a legend in his own mind until the timer goes off.

My favorite drill is draw and fire 3 shots in 3 sec, on the move.

Couldn't agree more! IDPA matches are very humbling! Also, great practice and a lot of fun. I also use a PACT; because they are so much simpler than a CED.

 

[oldman45]

I probably have a slight advantage over most being how I am an instructor and live on the same property that my range facilities are located on. That allows me a little more flexibility in being able to get to the range for regular practice, as well as "forcing" me to be present on the range and in the classroom in a professional capacity at least twice a month. In addition, the fact that I own my range allows me to set up scenarios and target placements that would be impossible on a public range or on most pay ranges, as well as allowing me the option of taking as many shots as I wish in whatever succession I deem necessary, with nearly any small arms platform I have at my disposal.

A shot timer is great tool for the defensive shooter, IMO. It allows a person to evaluate their performance, and their progression as a shooter. When used with standardized skills tests, they can help a shooter (or instructor) pinpoint areas of their skillset that need improvement and then provide the shooter with valuable feedback by which to track the improvements he or she has made.

If I may ask, what timer would you suggest for a casual timed practice at a location where there is no electric power.

I have a farm I visit a couple times a year. It is cleared land that I set up targets around just to kill time when I am there and I take a few guns to shoot. There is no livestock, no crops, no nearby neighbors and the back of the land has about 300 feet of heavy woods across it filled with large trees so that makes a good backstop.

The local police academy does not use timers and I feel it would be challenging and fun as well as helpful.

 

[David Sinko]

Generally speaking a timer is a good training implement. Depending on your level of experience, it will give you a greater understanding of the smaller parts of one second. If you don't want to spend the money on a timer, shooting action pistol matches will put things in perspective for you with regard to time and accuracy. But the timer can be a bad thing if you become obsessed with it. In my case it certainly helped me get to master class on the IDPA classifier but beyond that my shooting suffered when I felt that I just needed to shoot faster to improve. You never want accuracy to suffer just for the sake of speed. Sometimes you need to train to be smarter and not just faster. I haven't practiced with my timer for over a year now and at this point I find that proper dry fire is even more beneficial that using the timer.

Dave Sinko

 

[cshoff]

If I may ask, what timer would you suggest for a casual timed practice at a location where there is no electric power.

I have a farm I visit a couple times a year. It is cleared land that I set up targets around just to kill time when I am there and I take a few guns to shoot. There is no livestock, no crops, no nearby neighbors and the back of the land has about 300 feet of heavy woods across it filled with large trees so that makes a good backstop.

The local police academy does not use timers and I feel it would be challenging and fun as well as helpful.

If you just want a basic timer to provide you with a start signal, record splits, or sound off par times, most any of the "entry level" timers will do it. I've been using a Competition Electronics Pocket Pro with good results and they run about $120, give or take a few bucks.

Competition Electronics Pocket Pro Shot Timer - MidwayUSA

There are some other timers on the market that have more capabilities and can provide you with more information, but they are more costly. I've not used either, but have heard good things about the PACT Mark IV, and the Competition Electronics Pro 4 Super.

 

[OKFC05]

PACT club timer is about as simple as it gets.
PACT Inc. - Club Timer III

 

[USAF385]

I don't know.. with the timer you're just anticipating the bell... it's more like a duel than an actual SD situation.

 

[cshoff]

I don't know.. with the timer you're just anticipating the bell... it's more like a duel than an actual SD situation.

The timer is there to help you track your performance, not to simulate a SD situation. The timer helps you develop better, more consistent, and more efficient hard skills. Those more efficient hard skills, combined with realistic training that helps you develop a strong, precise intuitive response to the various stimuli that are likely to be present as a lethal force encounter starts to unfold, really help tilt the odds in your favor.

 

[USAF385]

The timer is there to help you track your performance, not to simulate a SD situation. The timer helps you develop better, more consistent, and more efficient hard skills. Those more efficient hard skills, combined with realistic training that helps you develop a strong, precise intuitive response to the various stimuli that are likely to be present as a lethal force encounter starts to unfold, really help tilt the odds in your favor.

I see how timers could serve a purpose for certain things, but in response to something mentioned by the OP:

I see where a timer going off to alert someone to draw and fire would be beneficial in practicing for unexpected self defense events.

I'm saying that standing at a range waiting for a bell isn't really that good of an indicator of response time in a real life situation.

 

[cshoff]

I see how timers could serve a purpose for certain things, but in response to something mentioned by the OP:

I'm saying that standing at a range waiting for a bell isn't really that good of an indicator of response time in a real life situation.

The truth of the matter is that there is NO way to simulate the stimuli that will be present in a lethal force encounter without actually being in one. A buzzer can't do it, a verbal command can't do it, and a visual start signal can't do it.

With that said, it in no way negates the importance of training ourselves to intuitively respond to a deadly threat. Whether the stimuli is a buzzer, or a armed attacker yelling, "I'm going to kill you!", we need to be sure that we have already created the neural pathways those mental signals will need to follow in order to elicit our response.

Personally, I prefer to mix up the start signals I use on the range. Sometimes I'll use the "FIRE" command, sometimes I'll use the "UP" command, sometimes I'll use the word "THREAT", sometimes I'll use a visual signal such as a target that is pulled into motion, sometimes I'll call a target ("#2" or maybe "BLUE"), and sometimes a buzzer or beeper on a shot timer is used. This forces the shooter to respond to a variety of stimuli with the same response, and it keeps the shooter from conditioning him/herself to only respond to a single stimuli.

 

[USAF385]

The truth of the matter is that there is NO way to simulate the stimuli that will be present in a lethal force encounter without actually being in one. A buzzer can't do it, a verbal command can't do it, and a visual start signal can't do it.

Exactly. Even with training using various signals, it lacks the true element of surprise that comes with a real life encounter. For that, there is really no way to train. You just have to hope everything you've gone over time and time again kicks in.

 

[oldman45]

Exactly. Even with training using various signals, it lacks the true element of surprise that comes with a real life encounter. For that, there is really no way to train. You just have to hope everything you've gone over time and time again kicks in.

I would disagree somewhat with this.

LEO are trained to be observant and always on the alert for potential problems.

Most of the time there will be small prompts that should alert individuals that something is not right. Those prompts are to be listened for, watched for and reacted to in appropriate fashion. They can be looked at much the same as the ding of a timer.

I heard a person say this many years ago in a training exercise and it has remained with me over the years. "There are no victims in the world, only unwilling accomplices." We all get signals when something is not right. You can call them feelings or intuition but it is there. The SHTF when we fail to heed the signs.

I used to ride around in the car listening to the radio. When certain words were mentioned on the radio, I would draw my sidearm out of my holster. That practice made me improve my ability to draw my gun. I would park and write reports but with my gun under my thigh in the seat. As I wrote, I was constantly looking in the rear view mirrors for those that may sneak up on me.

Be it a neighborhood, the attire and body language of those around us, the bad lighting in the parking lot or what ever, we should be alert and take the needed action to avoid being a willing accomplice. The ding of the timer is just another alert that we should always be ready to hear.

 

[sunday bill]

How many of you who don't use timers know if you can deliver effective shots on three targets from a shoulder-holstered revolver in 3 seconds or 8 seconds or 15 seconds? How about if you're seated, standing or with both arms occupied with groceries. How do these times compare with Beretta or Hi-Power times and # of hits in a hurry from YOUR hands?

Or if it's 30 minutes after sundown, or if your dominant eye ain't working, would laser sights improve your accuracy or time? Are you sure? What if it's snowing? Would that little beam merely serve to distract you in the swirling flakes and slow you down?

Would tritium sights help you achieve 3 hits in 8 seconds rather than only one from your 3" ACP if the BG is shooting at you from 26 yards?

How does your OWB holster time compare to the time it takes you to do the same from an IWB holster at 4 o'clock or a belly band crossdraw? Does a Fobus, or a pancake, or a high riding leather OWB offer you better times? By how much? or.....?????

Ever compare wheel gun times to 1911 times, or magnum times to .380 times, not in Skeeter's or Bill Jordan's or Ayoob's weak hand, but in YOUR weak hand when your strong hand is inactive for whatever reason? Can you really rack your slide on your thigh? On the first try?....No?.....Then how long does it take?

Or what if the fight is on (timer running) and you've shot one gun dry, is your reload time really that much quicker with a Glock mag than it is with a speed strip and a 625? Or is a BUG better, here?

Maybe you DON'T need a timer. Mileage indeed varies.

 

[cshoff]

Exactly. Even with training using various signals, it lacks the true element of surprise that comes with a real life encounter. For that, there is really no way to train. You just have to hope everything you've gone over time and time again kicks in.

And that is why we compete against the clock, compete against our training partner(s), compete against a field of other competitors, and compete against other roll players in FoF training; all of these situations help us to develop solid hard-skills while giving us a way to test them against various stressors so we can evaluate how good (or how bad) they may work, or may not work, when we really need them. When you get right down to it, we can sit around and debate how close or different a "start signal" is to the stimuli that will precede a dynamic critical event, all day long. But we can't debate the fact that a person who has trained and practiced to a high level of proficiency against the clock, has a distinct advantage over a poorly trained, poorly practiced person, when the SHTF.

 

[MrJT]

While training at a range using stimuli to trigger a response from the shooter is useful, it really doesn't compare to real life scenarios. The simple fact is, when you're doing this drill you're expecting it. You're standing there waiting for the signal to open fire. You also know you aren't going to be shot back at. It's easy to be a good shot against targets that don't shoot back and often don't even move. Sure it helps with draw time and such, but it doesn't transfer to real world situations.

Having been in combat, I've seen crack shot aces taken by surprise and left totally confused and disoriented by a sudden attack. One of my old buddies was fast and accurate on the range. He was one that I see freeze up in real life.

I'm not saying training isn't useful. Far from it! However, the only real way to train for a real life situation would be to simulate one. And that would be quite dangerous.

 

[cshoff]

While training at a range using stimuli to trigger a response from the shooter is useful, it really doesn't compare to real life scenarios. The simple fact is, when you're doing this drill you're expecting it. You're standing there waiting for the signal to open fire. You also know you aren't going to be shot back at. It's easy to be a good shot against targets that don't shoot back and often don't even move. Sure it helps with draw time and such, but it doesn't transfer to real world situations.

Having been in combat, I've seen crack shot aces taken by surprise and left totally confused and disoriented by a sudden attack. One of my old buddies was fast and accurate on the range. He was one that I see freeze up in real life.

I'm not saying training isn't useful. Far from it! However, the only real way to train for a real life situation would be to simulate one. And that would be quite dangerous.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, there is simply no way to simulate, exactly, the stimulus of a life threatening encounter without, in fact, being in a life threatening encounter. In addition, even if you were capable of reproducing a particular stimuli of a lethal force encounter on the range, it would be irrelevant because you could never reproduce the millions of other possible variations of stimuli that may take place during a lethal force encounter. In fact, even if you were personally involved in multiple lethal force encounters, you would still only have been subjected to a insignificant percentage of possible stimuli that could actually occur in a lethal force encounter. So we are back to what I mentioned before; we can sit around and debate how close or different a "start signal" is to the stimuli that will precede a dynamic critical event all day long, but we can't debate the fact that a person who has trained and practiced to a high level of proficiency against the clock and/or against other stressors, has a distinct advantage over a poorly trained, poorly practiced person, when the SHTF.

There is no discipline in the world that uses actual lethal force encounters to train their "warriors". Not the military, not SWAT, not Special Forces, no law enforcement agencies; it simply can't be done. But none of us can argue the gains in efficiency and effectiveness the people trained in these disciplines realize from training to compete against time, against each other, against "realistic" scenarios, and against other roll players in FoF training. As it relates to this thread, a shot timer is a very useful tool for the defensive shooter, notwithstanding any other useful training aids.