Timing issue old K-38 5 screw

[Dravenguild]

So I'm having carry up issues on two chambers of my old K-38, they need just a slight nudge in single action to fully lock into battery/engage cylinder stop.

Now, I currently have it with my Gunsmith, he advised against peening the ratchet face (He claims it works dubiously) and he is backlogged for a few weeks.

In the meantime I figure I would try to either source an oversized hand or find a new extractor star to have fitted.

I have ideas on where to find the oversized hand, but I really need some input on exactly what ratchet face my revolver has, it doesn't match any that I have seen which makes it extremely difficult to source a proper star.

It closely resembles a pre-k frame but much too small and the pins do not have the right spacing radius.

It also looks like some early k frame stars, but mine has 2 pin holes as opposed to the ones I have seen which have 1.

I know that cylinder and extractor are fitted at the factory, especially for revolvers this old (Guessing 40s or 50s) so it's not just a drop in part.

I suppose this post is to ascertain some information as well.

 

[k22fan]

Assuming that it does not have end shake that could be contributing to late carry up, the first thing to do is install an oversize (thicker) hand. While factory oversize hands often did not advance the carry up as much as I wanted, they all dropped right in and helped. In theory you might have to file the slot in the recoil shield wider before the over size hand will freely move thought it but I never had to. I read here that some none factory oversize hands are thicker. Obviously if you have to do that be sure to file off the side that does not support the hand. The last over size hands I bought were $10 to $15 from Brownell's and S&W. Brownell's shipping cost made buying from S&W less expensive. It's cheap and easy to do at home. Before that's done there's no point in worrying that it will need additional work. It might but probably it won't.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[4barrel]

A new factory stock hand fixed one for me. I bought three sizes but the over size was too much.

 

[Protocall_Design]

The point of an oversize one is so it can be fitted (filed down). You have to use a diamond file, a regular file just skates over it.

 

[Dravenguild]

Thank you all for the information, I have some thicker hands I included when I handed it off to my gunsmith, they were factory old stock.

Hopefully he can make due with those.

 

[Dravenguild]

Assuming that it does not have end shake that could be contributing to late carry up, the first thing to do is install an oversize (thicker) hand. While factory oversize hands often did not advance the carry up as much as I wanted, they all dropped right in and helped. In theory you might have to file the slot in the recoil shield wider before the over size hand will freely move thought it but I never had to. I read here that some none factory oversize hands are thicker. Obviously if you have to do that be sure to file off the side that does not support the hand. The last over size hands I bought were $10 to $15 from Brownell's and S&W. Brownell's shipping cost made buying from S&W less expensive. It's cheap and easy to do at home. Before that's done there's no point in worrying that it will need additional work. It might but probably it won't.

Welcome to the forum.

No end shake as far as the smith and I checked when I brought it in, he said it was material missing from two ratchet teeth.

In case the hands I included don't suffice I'll have to look into sourcing a k frame power hand, it looks as though Brownells is out of stock.

 

[OutWest50]

I have replaced the hand with a standard sized hand on several of my guns over the years. I have never had to use an oversized hand. Most recently a Model 28-2 very lightly needed a slight "nudge" to lock in on two cylinders, which indicated very minimal wear. The hand in the gun measured .093" at the tip. Several new standard hands in my parts bin measured .095"-.096". A .095" hand was a bit tight on four cylinders (don't force it if tight). It took a very minimum amount of stoning on the inside tip to get a good fit. Bottom line, every gun is different but many times the oversized hands are for instances where the gun has a significant amount of wear. It sounds like your gun may be a candidate for just a new standard size hand.

 

[garbler]

Installing and fitting up an oversized hand is generally way more involved than many here want you to believe. When Brownells or Midway tell you some fitting maybe needed best believe it and believe you're going to be buying some tools too.

Working with oversized hands from .096 to a full competition hand at .102" you will have to file and open the window to varying degrees and this must be done dead nut on or the hand will push off and not engage the ratchet lugs properly. It is kind of rare to find a revolver with a hand window wide enough for most larger or thicker hands so filing to fit is necessary.

A sloppy hand window cannot support the hand during it's travel to rotate the cylinder and the dirtier the gun gets the more rotational resistance you get which will cause skips and timing issues. Furthermore S&W hands are hardened and as such if the tip is not shaped a bit they will score the ratchets which are much softer. With guns that have been shot a lot it is pretty obvious and a common problem for Smiths.

Hands are hardened and cannot be filed but must be stoned or I normally use a surface grinder. Most of the time in opening up the hand window in the frame you will still have to stone or fit the hand to the window. You want a tight fit that allows enough clearance for the hand spring to permit easy movement in and out.

Then there is the matter of hand tip protrusion beyond the recoil face and what is tolerable and what is not. On K & L frames the hand tip cannot protrude at all and therefore some stoning may be required to the hand belly and at the same time this must be done properly so the hand remains vertical or parallel to the face of the cylinder.

Next is a matter of dealing with the cylinder ratchets since no hand is any good unless it is fitted and plays well with each of the six ratchet lugs. Perhaps with the newer guns being CNC machined all the ratchets will be the same height but prior to about 1991 they were not, so to fit an oversized hand you really need to find the lowest ratchet lug of the six and fit to that one or you will have problems. The tip of the hand should be re-shaped to engage the ratchets properly for a first class job. If this is not done the much harder hand can and will chew up the softer ratchets. There used to be some old time mechanics at Smith & Wesson and a number of gunsmiths like Ron Power who can find the offending low ratchet and actually hit the cylinder from the side get a fit but this trick is something best left to them.

Can you buy a new hand, drop it in and expect it to function properly ? Yes and no but it all depends on the condition of the gun. A gun that has a lot of hard use will most likely have wear in the hand window and the ratchets and eventually will not carry up properly. As a rule of thumb I think fitting an oversize hand is best left to a competent Smith & Wesson mechanic

Good luck