Timing on 617-1 6 shot

[markush]

When properly timed would a 617-1 6 shot be much different then on my 27-2 or model 36, which both lock up a good distance before full cock of the hammer?

I just used GB (for the first and last time) to purchase this 617 which when I very slowly cock the hammer in SA 3 chambers will fail to lock on their own. When I just do it slowly 1 will almost always fail to lock but on occasion 2 will fail. Of the other 3 chambers that will always lock only 1 is very slightly early the other 2 are almost exactly timed to when the hammer clicks full cock.

What's weird is that this gun appears to have not been fired much at all. I can see absolutely no wear on the extractor or hand so I'm thinking it either has been like this it's whole life or..well I don't know

Should I expect the 617 to lock early on every chamber like my other 2 Smith revolvers? Will the factory take care of this being that I just purchased this used?

 

[500 Magnum Nut]

Put used 22 cases in the chambers. The extractor if it's not pinned could have wobble and it will time differently empty then when it's loaded.

The lock up is tested with the trigger depressed and held fully to the rear. If it doesn't lock up under this condition (cylinder stop snaps into cylinder cut out - check all chambers) then the gun will need a tune up. The field repair is to replace the hand with a oversized one. Another option is to peen the lugs to get a little more out of them. S&W would replace the extractor if the gun was sent in. The newer guns (MIM) the extractors are available also, so that is also another option on which way to go, if you have a problem.

 

[markush]

500 Magnum Nut so it doesn't matter that cocking the hammer doesn't lock up the cylinder?

On the unlocked chamber if I hold the hammer to keep it from falling and pull the trigger the cylinder does lock into place every time. Is this really correct timing? Is this a just a 617 thing? My other smiths lock before the hammer is fully cocked?

 

[500 Magnum Nut]

500 Magnum Nut so it doesn't matter that cocking the hammer doesn't lock up the cylinder? Correct. It only matters when the hammer falls. Remember, if it locks up too early, it could give you a bad trigger pull (trigger will bind as the hammer drops)
On the unlocked chamber if I hold the hammer to keep it from falling and pull the trigger the cylinder does lock into place every time. Is this really correct timing? Is this a just a 617 thing? My other smiths lock before the hammer is fully cocked?
Each gun because of tolerances all act a little different. They should all act the same, but sometimes they are not tuned as well as others. It doesn't make it right or wrong just they are all unique to each other. As long as it's locked up as the firing pin strikes the cartridge, your fine. If not, then a repair is down the road.

Remember one thing, as you shoot the gun, the cylinder will have inertia as you shoot the gun, so if it's "not perfect" as you check it out, it will still be safe to shoot. The cylinder will carry on because of the weight & speed as it's spinning.

 

[valkyriekl]

The cylinder should lock before the hammer comes to full-cock in single-action (thumbing the hammer back). As 500 Magnum Nut said, the 617-1 has the new extractor which does not use pins to rotate the cylinder, and thus will have some play when the hammer is cocked without casings in the chambers to turn against, so try it with spent casings to see if that doesn't make the problem go away.

However, if the hand is worn to the point that it doesn't carry up the cylinder early enough, it'll probably have to be replaced.

 

[500 Magnum Nut]

The hands never wear. They are hardened & tough as nails. What wears is the extractor lugs. The lugs are soft.
Sometimes (quite often) the frame slot is too wide for the hand, so the hand is not guided (supported) as well causing bad carry up. The hands should fit the frame slot with minimal slop, the tighter the better, as long as it doesn't bind. Installing an oversized hand (thicker hand) will correct the oversized frame slot. It moves the indexing point of the hand to the left causing the cylinder to rotate further.

If the frame slot is of proper size, then as you go and install an over sized hand, you will be forced to file the window wider. They sell a "safe" window file for this. Dress the opening just enough to get the new hand to slip inside. Remember to file the hand on the LH side of the gun (thumb release side). If you file on the other side, it won't fix the carry up as you went the wrong way.

 

[markush]

Yes, it does this with full chambers as well.

This is my first experience with a 617 but I am not new to revolvers and to my eye, the extractor has no wear anywhere. All the lug edges appear to be sharp and fresh. I cannot feel any play in the extractor to cylinder fit nor does there appear to be any, much less excess, play of the hand in the window. So unless the 617's just do not wear this thing is very close to new.

I hear what you say about the inertia helping to lock the cylinder 500 Magnum Nut, and while it doesn't seem to have a problem locking up double action, when I test fired this in SA (how I will do a huge majority of shooting with this) it consistently didn't lock on one chamber. I would have to "cock it harder" as my FFL guy suggested when I was doing my initial inspection in front of him.

 

[valkyriekl]

The hands never wear. They are hardened & tough as nails. What wears is the extractor lugs. The lugs are soft.

I thought it was the other way around--the extractor lugs/ratchets are the hardened parts, and the hands are the soft parts, designed to wear first, since they're easier and cheaper to replace. At least this has been true with every gun I've ever needed to fix timing/carry-up for--I've always replaced the hand, which (after a bit of fitting) fixes the problem, and never replaced the extractor, which is fitted to the cylinder (at least, for the older pinned versions).

I hear what you say about the inertia helping to lock the cylinder 500 Magnum Nut, and while it doesn't seem to have a problem locking up double action, when I test fired this in SA (how I will do a huge majority of shooting with this) it consistently didn't lock on one chamber. I would have to "cock it harder" as my FFL guy suggested when I was doing my initial inspection in front of him.

That doesn't sound right--it should lock up before the hammer is at full-cock, no matter how fast/hard you're cocking it. I'd say the hand is worn (it happens) and needs to be replaced. Replacing it is easy if you know how to get inside a S&W revolver, and tuning it to work with your gun isn't that difficult either if you know what you need to do. I refer you to the Larry Potterfield Video for how to fit a new hand, and this thread on TheHighRoad.org for how to get inside a S&W revolver.

 

[markush]

Is this something that S&W would cover under warranty? While it seems simple enough to replace the hand...$15 for the hand and if I was to use the proper window file is another $33 + shipping... Is this something Smith will cover under warranty?

 

[500 Magnum Nut]

I thought it was the other way around--the extractor lugs/ratchets are the hardened parts, and the hands are the soft parts,

No because when the gun is fitted, the extractor is hand filed to lock up on each chamber. The extractor is just regular steel nothing more. If you strike the edge you can deform the lugs easily.
The hands are ground flat and heat treated. Possibly the hardest part on the whole gun. If you would take a hand file and attempt to file the hand, the file would just glance off. The only way to reshape a hand is to use a grinder or a stone like in the MidwayUSA video.

The Power Custom brand hands sold by Brownells and others are not factory S&W parts. These hands need to be ground/shaped on the top so they don't bind on the previous lug. (shaped like a S&W part). In addition, these hands don't fit the guns with the bolt block feature because the pins are too short.


The Potterfield video dosen't show how to fit the hand to the window. He is also incorrect how to final fit the hand to the gun. When the oversized hand is installed, if the hand is binding you use a file and dress the lugs. (that is the way I was taught from school)
What will happen if you have 1 chamber short (one lug short)? Stoning the hand won't fix it, because you have to shape the extractor.

 

[500 Magnum Nut]

Is this something that S&W would cover under warranty? While it seems simple enough to replace the hand...$15 for the hand and if I was to use the proper window file is another $33 + shipping... Is this something Smith will cover under warranty?

Sure, S&W will fix your gun free of charge if you are the original owner. A lot of them leave the factory in this condition, in this case S&W might still fix it for free.

If you must pay the repair, it will be less than 100 bucks incl shipping. It's an easy thing to do for gunsmith.

 

[tomcatt51]

If you're bothered enough to send it back have them fit a 10 shot cylinder. I put one in my 617-1 and I wouldn't go back to six.

 

[valkyriekl]

What will happen if you have 1 chamber short (one lug short)? Stoning the hand won't fix it, because you have to shape the extractor.

In that case, peen that lug and shape it to bring it in-time with the others.

If, however, the cylinder is slow-timed on all chambers (and slow by the same amount on each), then I'd say the hand is worn and needs to be replaced.

It just seems bass-ackwards to me to have the most intricate part, the part that would seem (to me) to need the most careful attention from an assembler/fitter (the ratchet/lugs) be the part that would have to be replaced or repaired the most often. Sounds too labor intensive. Maybe on a Colt, sure, but not with a Smith.