Too Far, Too Fast?

[RussC]

Within the last twelve months I have purchased an M&P40c and a Remington 870 (tactical) shotgun. M&P is a bit cumbersome as a carry pistol so I am considering either replacing the compact, with a Shield, or adding the Shield to my arsenal(?)
Which would you recommend, replacing or adding? I have been told by some PA State Police that the 870 is the prime home defense weapon. So I feel like I should hang on to it.
Just so you have all of the pertinent info...my wife does not "like" the compact and she has no desire to carry.
Thanks!

Dlcra

If you plan to pocket conceal your choice has been made for you between the 40c and Shield.

You mentioned your wife will not pack. I am in the same boat. My wife is my best friend and she is ok that I carry but she is not ok that I buy a ccw for every season (money is not the issue) so I decided if I am only going to own one concealed carry weapon it will be the Shield 9 mm.

After pocket packing my Shield for nearly 18 months and at least one range visit a month she has replaced my full size XD 45 as my fun gun.


Good luck especially if you must choose only one.

Russ

 

[WR Moore]

Within the last twelve months I have purchased an M&P40c and a Remington 870 (tactical) shotgun........... I have been told by some PA State Police that the 870 is the prime home defense weapon. So I feel like I should hang on to it.

You don't mention the gauge of the shotgun, I'll assume 12 gauge. It's a decent choice if and only if: you expect to hunker down in a defensive posture and let the threat come to you, you use appropriate ammuntion (not birdshot-spare me the stories. I'd suggest tactical or low recoil buckshot/slugs.), and you-and your wife-have used the piece enough that safe operation of it is smooth and without concious thought.

If this was intended as a his n hers defensive piece, 20 gauge would probably been a better choice. A self loading shotgun is much easier for tyros to handle as it doesn't require you to reload it after every shot.

Now then, if the M&P was intended as a his n hers piece, perhaps she should have been in on the testing prior to purchase. I'm getting the picture from the tone of your comments that you're a first time firearm user. That being the case, I'd stongly suggest you take some certified classes to learn how to properly and safely handle firearms. Perhaps with some experience, you'll realize that adequate self defense tools aren't the size and weight of credit cards.

 

[SMMAssociates]

dlcra:

To echo (and sometimes disagree) with WR Moore: A semi-auto shotgun is a LOT easier to handle with all but the lightest loads. I hate my Mossberg 500 on that basis - I'm relatively large, but still don't like it. OTOH, there aren't any parts it there .... Not much to break.... If it's a "his & hers", she's going to have to really get into it.

("Tactical" or low-recoil loads are also a very good idea, either way.)

Birdshot v.s. slugs or buckshot.... Just IMHO, but birdshot may be safer indoors in most modern houses. I'm afraid that I'll punch through a wall or two with buckshot or slugs.... It also fits Joe Biden's suggestion - might as well just make a lot of noise .... If you do hit somebody with birdshot up close, you should still STOP all but the most determined attacker. The problem is that STOP is iffy, and shielding (standing behind a door, perhaps) may be a little help for the BG. A 20 guage may also be a little more comfortable to shoot for both of you. I had one years ago, and managed to hurt myself with it (somehow the safety lever tore up my thumb), but it was otherwise a lot more fun to shoot.

The M&P will be fine for about any use except target work. It's a little harder to conceal than the Shield, but you can dress around the gun a little bit. They're just not that big. The Shield is about the same size, but the grip frame has a thinner profile. This does conceal better, but in .40S&W may be a little less comfortable than you or your wife prefer. Either way, the 40C is fine for just about everything else in terms of self defense.

Just IMHO, most anybody should be able to handle the 40C, although there may be a learning curve, especially if you or your wife are quite small. The 9C would almost be as useful, and is a tad more comfortable to shoot. I still like the .40 .... I don't think an average sized person will have any issues with the .40C that a little practice won't fix.

IAC, don't be put off by some of the responses here - each of us was a beginner once, and it's not the same as popping a DVD into a player! Do take the trouble to take some courses of some kind, and get a PA License if you haven't already got one (and get your wife to do it, too!). (I can't get my wife to do that.... )

Regards,

 

[dlcra]

Did get my LTCF last month and we both took NRA's Basic Pistol class two weeks ago. That is when my wife shot the M&P40c and said it was too much for her. Funny...she picked out the shotgun but has not shot it yet. (that will change in the very near future!)
Like your wife, mine has no desire to get LTCF.

 

[BAM-BAM]

I've CC'ed for 35 years............ and dress around the gun!

For years my suit gun was a Walther PPK.......380 in a Sparks Summer Special.
In jeans; 1st was a 4" Diamond Back, followed by a 21/2" 19, 3" 65 and last and still a 3" 66.

The PPK is for the most part a safe queen...... only comes out for formal occasions...... with a Tux.

Since the early 90s the gun I carry most is a 3913NL flush fit 7rd mag. Hogue checkered wood grips ( I like the extra thickness) in a Sparks Ex Companion IWB holster; with a spare (or 2) 8rd. mag.

The 3913 is not to big and not to small, 9mm

The key as many have said is a good belt and a very good holster

Just got a interesting shotgun for home defense for the wife (5'4" 115lbs)...... a Mossburg 510, 20 gage.
It's a youth model with 11-12 length of pull and an 18 inch barrel, weight about 5lbs...... basically a scaled down 500. The only down side, if there is one, is it's a 3+1 loaded; I've added a shell holder to the stock so she has 5 extra rounds at hand. I like it tooo!

 

[forrestinmathews]

I disagree on the recommendation/use of birdshot. I want penetration. My bump in the night guns are AK's, AR's and shotguns loaded with buckshot. Why on earth would anyone worry about overpenetration at the outset or prior to an engagement? To me the first thing that everyone should be worried about is neutralizing(killing or mortally wounding) the BG(s). Sorry, but I didn't invite them into my house and therefore they are not entitled to my hospitality. IF you make it through the encounter, then you can worry about all the other stuff. Trying to pre worry and possibly set myself up to be outgunned in my own home is silly. Yes I realize the possibility of having a pitched gun battle in my home is slim, but should it occur, I want the best chance at prevailing.

The reality is that handgun bullets and buckshot just do not penetrate as far through houses as you might think. 1B or 4B is not going to retain too much energy after punching through a dividing wall. It's not likely that the handgun bullets are going to do any real serious damage once they go through the dividing wall either, especially if they are larger caliber hollow points. The real penetrator is likely going to be the 5.56, but even that can be mitigated with hollow points or varmint ammunition.

All this said, the OP is well equipped for his stated mission of protecting his family inside and outside of his home. I hope he takes the advice to get training/take classes. I think that's your best bet. Please also realize that none of us forum ninjas is going to be with you in your moment of truth and that our advice may or may not suit your situation.

 

[Rastoff]

A note on shotgun choice:

Picking a 20ga over a 12ga will not necessarily yield the results most think. A 20ga with 1oz loads will actually have more felt recoil than a 12ga with 1oz loads. Why? Because it's not the gauge that determines how much recoil there is, it's the load. Also, a 20ga shotgun is almost universally smaller than a 12ga. Therefore, because the gun is lighter, a 20ga with the same load will deliver more recoil to the shooter than a 12ga. Heavier gun = less felt recoil.

Now, the most common load for a 20ga is 7/8oz. The most common load for a 12ga is 1 1/8oz or 1 1/14oz. So, the perception is developed that a 20ga has less "kick" because most of the time people are shooting a lighter load.

I'm saying all this because it's important to understand the dynamics. This way you can make an informed choice.

The same goes for picking a proper defense load. The bird shot is good because it won't over penetrate and hit someone unintended on the other side of a wall. It's bad because it might not penetrate the bad guy if he has a heavy jacket on.

00 Buck is a manly load and will penetrate the guy's jacket, but it will also penetrate through the wall and into your child's bedroom. Do you want that?

I prefer #4 shot for home defense. It's a compromise between penetration and over penetration.

There is no "right" answer here. SMMAssociates is not wrong for using bird shot and forrestinmathews is not wrong for wanting to use buckshot. There are pros and cons for both. You will have to compromise. Just make an informed decision.

The same goes for pistols. Most say the .40S&W has a sharper recoil than the .45ACP. Even though the .45 is bigger, the .40 travels faster so it has a sharper recoil. In my experience, most women prefer the 1911 5" gun. Yes, it's heavy, but they can operate the slide easier, it absorbs recoil better and it's thinner so, it's easier to hold.

 

[N4KVE]

The M&P compact is one of my favorite guns. Since I have no problem concealing one year round, I would not buy a Shield. Besides the 40S&W in sub compact guns sucks!

The M&P compact really isn't that heavy or bulky. It's a great balance between size and firepower. I would keep it but only you can decide.

I carry a 40c also. No way I'd give it up for a Shield. I find the 40c the perfect size for my hand. If I wanted a bulky compact, I'd carry a 469. What you have is perfect, & don't change anything. MANY times over the years I traded for what I thought was better, but realizing later it was a foolish move & having trader's remorse. GARY

 

[WR Moore]

I'd suggest those who think birdshot is pixie dust check out the box o truth website. In the Drywall Age, just about all shot will pass through interior walls with enough retained energy to inflict life threatening/fatal wounds.

OTOH, except at ranges far closer than you should allow a threat to approach, it's a lousy choice for defense. Why? Because the vital structures and organs that you're trying to hit are inside the bony structure of the rib cage. You need projectiles with greater mass than birdshot to penetrate to the vital areas. Remember, the BG isn't going to do a double back flip, kick twice and expire upon impact. They can keep going for 10 seconds or so on retained oxygen in the muscle/brain tissue.

You'll need to survey your home and decide where the firing lanes are avoid the no-shoot/danger zones.

BTW, very few buckshot loads actually weigh what we expect. #1 actually has the greatest weight of shot.

 

[SMMAssociates]

While I'm never wrong ( ), there is a lot of argument over birdshot v.s. buckshot.... In my case, the house was built in 1960, and has fairly solid plasterboard walls (some of which are behind paneling). I expect that my JHP's (.40 or .45) would be seriously slowed down, and any likely buck load likely the same. However, our last two houses were such that stopping a pea shooter might be an issue.... So, my preference is for something that's going to be seriously slowed by the plaster & whatever's behind it. Might be under-powered and there aren't any kids here anymore unless somebody's visiting (bunch of little rug rats belonging to my nieces & nephews), but....

(Mom & dad built the place in 1960. My wife and I moved in with mom to help take care of her in 2009, and she almost immediately decided to Winter in El Paso, and never bothered to come back. Must have been my cooking? We inherited the house. I was in here before there were walls up - just studs....)

For a house gun, I do agree that something big & heavy may be a better choice - the choice there is size & weight v.s. the shooter's ability to handle & control the gun. A full sized 1911 may be a little much to carry, but isn't much more of a problem to shoot than your average large 9mm. A .40 really wants to be in a larger gun, too, if possible. I've found the 40C only slightly more of a problem than the 40FS, but I'm used to 1911's, and the extra hit doesn't bother me at all. .38's and 9mm's are popguns ....

I do think that nothing smaller than 9mm should be considered. While the .380 is nominally just a short 9mm, it's not as hard a hitter, and either the .380 or 9mm really need to be well placed to be effective. A second shot may be both necessary and difficult. Kick that up to .40 or .45 and while a second shot may be even more difficult, the need backs off a bit, IMHO.

The same thing, I think, applies to shotgun loads. If you make a sufficient mess out of the BG with the first shot, he's out of the game, even if his survival odds are improved. I think it may be easier to take a second shot with a long gun, too, should it appear necessary, but the semi-auto will improve that, too.

Buy several of each ....

Regards,

 

[Rastoff]

While I'm never wrong ( ),...

...A full sized 1911 may be a little much to carry,...

Since you're never wrong, I guess I'll have to change my carry gun out for something plastic.

 

[SMMAssociates]

Rastoff:

Well, the full sized M&P would fit the "size" requirement....

(A steel GM Colt is about the same size. I can conceal one without too much hassle. I used to carry a 6" K-frame as a Duty gun, with a 4" K-frame for soft clothes and concealment. The full size M&P's are essentially the same size, and may be a tad more reliable.)

Now, if you're talking various lightweight versions of the 1911, you can't really presume to use them as wheel chocks, but it changes the equation. IAC, the real problem, IMHO, i the sheer physical size. OTOH, other than stuffing the thing into a purse or fanny pack, the dumb things are BIG. Smaller folks might be better served with something like a Compact M&P.

Come to think of it, I did make a mistake in 1975....

Regards,

 

[forrestinmathews]

I think I have home defense figured out now...
I'll use bird shot in 12 gauge to increase the humaneness of the enocounter and give the BG a better chance to litigate afterwards. I'll also switch guns once I'm home because I need a house gun that is heavier than my carry gun, but somehow I have to neuter it to prevent over penetration. I think I'll load it with frangibles so that all the BG has to do is hide behind something hard and he'll be ok to sue me in the morning.

This is a riot! The only thing it makes me want to do is switch from 2 3/4" 00B to 3 1/2" 00B in order to get twice the lead flying in half the time.

Why all the whining about the size of a 1911? Put it in a sparks or galco IWB and forget about it until you need it. Wear clothes that cover the gun if that it what you want to carry. If you can run one, I think it's hard to beat for a defensive arm.

Surely you're joking about the reliability of a K-frame revolver as opposed to any semiauto. Let's see a tap, rack, bang in 0.25 seconds. That's about how long a decent shooter takes to make a second aimed shot after a click. With the exception of the lazy people that don't properly eject the spent shells and get one stuck under the star, there's not a lot that can go wrong. I have found few other things that bone stock, I'd bet on everytime. Especially since the cylinders being so close together makes it the second fastest S&W revolver to reload, behind the N frame 625.

The M&P pistol is a great gun for what it is. I like mine because it has no grip screws to rust when up against the body on a hot summer's day and feels better than a Glock.