Top break latch?

[BMur]

Here are but 3 references for the .358 bullet associated with the original .38 S&W. I apologized that they are not Sammi references but they do pre-date Sammi by 80 years! The written section is from an 1898 loading manual that specifies the .358 bullet for all S&W's. Also later 1936 ref for the earlier two band bullet. All of which are .358. then of course the standard 3 band bullet from a 1955 reference, which is also .358. I guess these guys all got it wrong too. I don't know, but these also are references for existing antique bullet molds if you are interested in obtaining one. I think my interest in this thread has now exhausted. Thanks for the interesting info.

 

[coyotejoe]

Interesting, actually the drawing I posted is from the Lyman Handbook 49th edition, which is the most recent. For some reason, likely my lack of technological expertise, I was not able to copy the drawing directly from the SAAMI site but the Lyman drawing was identical. My earlier Lyman books show no specifications but only say "a wide variation in groove diameter exists among handguns chambered for this cartridge so the user is advised to slug his barrel and load bullets .001" over groove diameter if possible". Which is exactly why SAAMI was created.
Most bullet molds do cast at least .001" and up to .005" over their designated size so I would not be surprised to get .361" bullets from a mold labeled 358. I have no intention of casting for this little pocket pistol since I doubt I'll be doing a lot of plinking with it. One option I did employ with a British Enfield revolver with .361" bore was the use of .358" 148 grain hollow base wadcutter bullets, accuracy was not match grade but I didn't expect that from an old military revolver.

This thread has drifted pretty far from it's original question and has run on and on in circles so I suggest we just agree to disagree and let it go.

 

[glowe]

I am afraid that you are looking for information to support an answer you already have. Usually, it is the other way round?? I also guess you did not notice that I had measured three 38 Perfected revolvers and they all came up with the same nominal groove diameter as their predecessors. I have one of the latest 38 Perfected revolvers made and it was made in the last year of production They all used exactly the same barrel assembly as the original 38 DAs and the frame was adapted from a Model 1903, 32 HE, I frame. Bore dimensions of the 38 top-breaks did not change period!! The mouth of the cylinders will measure about .361" and so will the grooves if care is taken to make sure you are not measuring the lands.

There is data that shows that 38 Colt, not S&W 38 Special underwent a size reduction from .377 to .357 around 1900. The 38 Special was designed from the start to use .357" bullets, never .361" of the 38 S&W or 377" of the 38 Colt. There is evidence that the size reduction of the 38 Colt bullet was a result of the Army and Navy purchasing S&W 38 Special revolvers and both Colt and S&W hand ejectors needed to be able to use the same ammunition. Around the turn of the Twentieth Century, these calibers were also called 38 Military and 38 S&W Special & US Service cartridge for a time In the Model 3 & N frame revolvers, the first was 44 Russian, which evolved to the 44 Special and ultimately the 44 Magnum. Today's 44 Magnum revolvers will shoot all three cartridges, which are still to this day .429” diameter bullets.

No reloading die sets made today offer a smaller bullet cartridge for smokeless powder era versus a larger bullet cartridge for BP era. No reloading data offers a smaller post-BP bullet for reloading those calibers of the late 1800s. As for 45 Colt, it is true that Colt changed the size of their bullets, but it happened in 1891, not 1900. Frankford Arsenal loads in January, 1891 used a .453" bullet and maybe by coincidence, that same date is when the arsenal went from copper to brass casings. I see that there appears to be no way to pull you off the path that you believe that all smokeless caliber bullets were reduced in size from their BP predecessors to effect a lower pressure load, no matter what information and data we provide, so I also give up.