Track record? - .38 Spl +P+

[Old Corp]

A good friend, retired ATF, was helping out a fellow retired agent in a move. That friend gave him a bunch of ammo, which a good quantity was given to me.
I've accumulated some from various sources before, but much of this is full boxes of their old duty round - WW .38 Spl. +P+ 110 gr. JHP, with the expected 'LE use Only' label on the box.

IIRC, my friend told me this was used mostly in some M640's in .38 that were marked for +P+, and a bit later, for M640 .357's.

Anyone got any info on the rounds track record in actual use?

Don't have a chrono, and guess I've never been a fan of fast, light bullets. For snubs, I usually carry either Fed. 135 gr HST +P, or a similar Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel or 158 gr LSWC-HP +P.

Just wondering if anyone has any info of real world use on this blast from the 1980's?

 

[bmcgilvray]

Fix ya' right up.

A friend of my parents worked for the Treasury Department and occasionally gave me boxes of this load. This would have been 1978-1980.

From some old notes I keep. The load was chronograph tested around 1980.

Winchester Western "white box" +p+ .38 Special 110 grain JHC

Model 10 4-inch barrel - Velocity: 1120 fps

Model 14 8 3/8-inch barrel - Velocity: 1228 fps

 

[Duckford]

The short gyst of things from the "streets" I've always heard was that it was going to be the darling new super velocity magick bullet that was going to slay bad guys through magic shock waves based on the bad science of the time, 20% gel and success based on temporary cavities alone. Higher velocity was going to make it better for penetrating barriers (which has merit to it). But, from everything I heard, the bullet was too light for caliber and still under powered, ended up being a poor penetrator of people and basically a junk load for all the hype it walked in with. There was a good reason why the Fed's reversed course and went back to a "simple" lead hollow point again.

Take a long look at all ballistics gel tests done from now till back when 10% became the norm, the 110's are too light and have always been a poor performer in the laboratory, and its only praise comes from the propaganda and hype that came before it, not after it started use.

 

[gwpercle]

But they are fun to shoot water filled plastic jugs with.....
When Super-Vel came out with the 110 grain HP's we loaded them hot and were duly impressed on their ability to take down water jugs !
While maybe not the "best" self defense round , you got them for free. Go water filled plastic jug hunting !
Gary

 

[sigp220.45]

I don't think they were all that hot. Definitely not enough to merit all the "only use them in .357s!" comments they usually elicit.

The 110s barely make 1200 fps, which you can beat handily with non +P 9mm loads all day long.

The FBI issued +P+ 147 grain Hydra Shoks in .38 Special, which usually will give the entire internet a case of the vapors and generate multiple posts asking if they are safe to use in a Model 28. They lope along at 950 fps. Its a decent load, but I used to qualify with them in my old Model 36 with no problem.



They did work on the street, though, and that is all that counts.

 

[michpatriot]

Hey those look like bonded Gold Dot bullets..interesting rounds you got there I'm gonna look around more @ gun shows..147 huh..

 

[rwsmith]

.38s are tough....

I know that model 10s are tougher than the ammo that is usually designated +P and an old book I had gave loads a grain higher that anyone else's. I worked above the 'recommended max' for some loads that would get your attention. The trouble I have with the +P+ is that you don't know anything except that it's stronger than +P. I'd suspect that a good brand wouldn't load anything dangerous but I'd be sure to fire them them in a modern, well built gun that was heavy enough to take it. (Like a model 10).
You could still expect accelerated wear, though.

 

[shouldazagged]

I have one of the early 640's, about 5,000 made, marked "TESTED FOR +P+". I carry it daily, have for years. It's loaded with 158 grain LSWCHP, +P or equivalent. I just feel better about what I hear and read about the merits of heavy, slower projectiles over lightweight screamers.

Call me old school and I won't argue.

 

[Homie]

In the March '79 RIFLEMAN I found a reference for the Winchester 110 gr. load-(Q4070)- that states the specified velocity from a 2" @ 15' was 1020 fps. Federal offered a similar load. From all the testing members here have reported on these loads, this velocity seems to have varied greatly from lot to lot.

The writeup also mentions a Federal +P+ 125 gr. @1015 fps from a 4", loaded for some state LE agencies. I've not seen or heard much on this specific load- does anyone have any additional info on it?

 

[Boge]

...Anyone got any info on the rounds track record in actual use?...

I remember a retired Customs Agent speaking of this round whereas his partner shot a guy six times with it in the chest. DRT if I recall.

...The FBI issued +P+ 147 grain Hydra Shoks in .38 Special,...

I thought it was the Silvertip 140 gr. .357 or the 158 gr. +p+ LSWCHP post 1972.

 

[chief38]

I believe this was a politically correct answer (back in the 70's) to the Public's outcry when the Fed's went to .357 Magnum M66's. By hopping up a .38 Spl, they could say they were not carrying a Magnum load - made people "feel better".

I've got both the Federal and Winchester versions and do not and would not use them for SD since there are now much better options out there. My Dad was a Fed and he didn't think much of them and after a short while did not carry them either.

 

[Old Corp]

I believe this was a politically correct answer (back in the 70's) to the Public's outcry when the Fed's went to .357 Magnum M66's. By hopping up a .38 Spl, they could say they were not carrying a Magnum load - made people "feel better".

I've got both the Federal and Winchester versions and do not and would not use them for SD since there are now much better options out there. My Dad was a Fed and he didn't think much of them and after a short while did not carry them either.

Thanks Chief38 and other's for your responses.
This from Chief lines up with what my retired ATF friend told me - that even when they switched to .357 revolvers, using the .38's was a PR move.

Much the same with my old agency - when I started, issue was Colt Trooper MKIII's .357 (4"), switching soon thereafter to the M66 .357(4" uniform, 2.5" plainclothes).
Duty round was ALWAYS a .38 +P, the first I recall was the S&W-brand ammo of .38 +P 110 JHP, later for unknown reasons switching to the 125 gr JHP. Soon S&W was out of the ammo business and the revolver years were finished up with the Federal 125 gr. +P JHP.
The duty round choice I am pretty sure was strictly a PR move.
Ironically, my city also had sworn Park Rangers who trained with us. Duty weapon for them, a nickel M19 with .357 158 gr. JHP.

 

[Duckford]

The PR move was a real thing, but also recoil. After the Newhall tragedy, California standardized the 38 Special in the Model 28's because they decided that they should practice with the same ammunition that they serve with, and went with the light load instead of the full power load, in a big heavy N frame made for a lifetime of heavy magnum use. This has many factors, including the school of "only shot placement counts, just teach everyone to become bullseye shooters, shoot small hit big" mantras, as well as people in various police agencies who weren't gun people and wanted to carry the smallest guns and the lightest loads they could get away with.

I remember reading somewhere in the early 80's where Ayoob testified at a hearing about people complaining about guns and ammunition not being suited to women and other people who didn't like shooting the normal stuff in what I believe was the FBI or some other Federal agency. The fact people were making a fuss about 38 Special +P gives us more than what we need to know on the subject of 357 Magnum and why it fell out of favor as a standard cartridge, even if other shooters who liked it preferred it.

Downgunning is a common issue in all areas of shooting, from hunting to official agencies, all for the same reason that people just don't like recoil and blast. The 10mm was introduced, and what happened? It was loaded light to begin with, and it still had to toned down with a new, shorter replacement with less umph. How many lawmen carried 38's in their 357's on their own volition, how many departments switched to 38's because of whining? Out of dogma of certain shooting schools of thought?

its an interesting time in handgun round development, different theories of wounding effectiveness came, bullet designs and processes moved quickly, and the fact there seemed to be so many changes in that short period of time in round selection showed the kind of chaos the fast learning curve created.

 

[Doug M.]

Placement is more of an important variable than most differences in ammo, but widespread knowledge of where to shoot has been lacking until the last 10 or so years. The corresponding knowledge that pistol rounds are not all that great is likewise relatively recent, so training to shoot as many rounds as needed to discern a lack of ability to continue the actions that justify the shooting has also been relatively recent. I am amply confident that with decent placement, my standard velocity .38 SWCs should do the job if that were what I had when TSHTF.

 

[Steve C]

This Stopping Power chart came from Handloads.com. It is basically from the Marshal Sannow Study so its generally police ammo performance of the late 90's. It shows the 110gr .38 spl +P+ at about an 80% effectiveness compared to other +P+ rounds. This is equivalent to some of the best 9mm standard velocity ammo of the same era. You can go to Handloads.com and find the iterative chart for viewing comparisons to other ammunition.

 

[ddixie884]

I wish I'd have bought a case of that 147gr +P+ Federal, when it was on close-out from the on-line sellers. It was a good buy.

 

[Duckford]

This Stopping Power chart came from Handloads.com. It is basically from the Marshal Sannow Study so its generally police ammo performance of the late 90's. It shows the 110gr .38 spl +P+ at about an 80% effectiveness compared to other +P+ rounds. This is equivalent to some of the best 9mm standard velocity ammo of the same era. You can go to Handloads.com and find the iterative chart for viewing comparisons to other ammunition.

Marshall and Sannow's works are worthless pieces of trash, and the way these statistics are calculated, collected, and finally analyzed and their conclusions drawn, at best their work is worthless and at worst harmful to the field and study.

 

[rockquarry]

Regarding this study, one might question the meaningfulness of the figures under "Shootings" and "One Shot Stops". Assuming this is only a very cursory summation of the entire study, are there other figures that show whether a suspect received one or more non-fatal, non-stopping bullet wounds?

Without adequate supporting information, these results seem inconclusive at best, but maybe I'm missing something here.

 

[DocB]

Buffalo Bore will beat those all day long. You can either go with the very soft lead hollow cavity or the hard cast bullet. Either will generate 350 ft lbs of muzzle energy. Both are full size bullets appropriate for the caliber. In a 6 inch barrel, the hard cast is claimed to generate close to 500 ft lbs of muzzle energy. . .a "light" 357 magnum load in a 38 Special. Everything that I have read indicates that Buffalo Bore is right on with their ballistics.

 

[AZretired]

At time the WW 110gr +P+ load was issued to the ATF they carried a 2.5 inch M-66 and that was their duty load. I was given some in 1980 and the 640 didn't exist.