Trail Boss and jacketed bullets are a no go

[Nemo288]

Actually lead has a lot less friction.

And I believe that jacketed bullets can obturate at least a little.
Solids are another matter entirely.
I have presented what little scientific evidence I have above in picture form.
Given that cylinder throat dimensions can be all over the place one cannot assume any given bullet is going to be the proper amount oversize.
Many jacketed bullets will never be large enough to fill the .432 and .433 holes in mid 1980's 44's.
The reason many cast loads have lower powder and power is to keep the velocity down.
This is supposed to keep lead fouling in the barrel down with the softer lead alloys.
With a hard alloy and gas check there is no need to do this.
We shoot cast bullets well over 2000 fps all the time with the 444.

 

[dave201]

OK.
Details.
What was the load?
TB can't be blamed if the load did not create enough fps (pressure).
I have shot many TB loads with jacketed bullets in 44 spl and never had a stuck bullet.
I always aim for at LEAST 650 fps.
700+ preferred.
Admittedly I shoot these in a 696 which has a 3" barrel.
Never heard of the ban on jacketed with Trail Boss.
Riflemen use it all the time for reduced loads.
I'm with Ivan.
Something is missing here.
And NO I am not accusing Taro of anything. He is a genuine member I respect.
I am quite willing to admit it all happened that way.
Just want the facts Ma'am.

Sounds reasonable to me. Never had a Trailboss problem

 

[metalman60]

Interesting Example

I think the cut-away barrel is being used as a visual aid, to establish an opinion that Trail Boss powder does not work well with jacketed ammo. Why anyone would spend the time to create such a visual example, is beyond my understanding.

 

[Wee Hooker]

I can say that I've had outstanding results with Trail Boss under 125gr plated bullets in 38 special range loads. In fact,TB tested most accurate out of a half dozen powders with these bullets. Pleasant shooting too. I've been using these as my training rounds for newbies.

 

[austinjeane]

The hardness of a metal is not the same as the friction it may or may not produce in a given circumstance.

 

[Speedo2]

The hardness of a metal is not the same as the friction it may or may not produce in a given circumstance.

You should spend some time with a chronograph to ascertain the validity of what others have told you: cast lead bullets will have higher velocities than jacketed (or plated) bullets of the same weight and approximate shape, fired from the same gun, and loaded to the same specifications.

What physical or chemical constraints, other than frictional losses, could account for the velocity difference? (Electro-magnetic, hyposonic-coriollis, and/or ectoplasmatic effects not withstanding ) Check it out for yourself.

 

[Vigo]

Does anyone know when and what prompted the manufacturer to move from dissuading reloaders from using jacketed bullets with Trail Boss? It has been one of a couple powders I use for several years, and when I started using it, they warned to use only lead bullets with it. The reloading manuals I have that do have Tail Boss (which is not many compared to other powders) only listed lead bullets.

Did anyone ever test Trail Boss specifically with jacketed and with plated bullets (i.e. not just lead)? I shoot almost entirely soft lead bullets from my .38s, but it's always good to learn more/different loadings for the powders I do have.

 

[BC38]

The hardness of a metal is not the same as the friction it may or may not produce in a given circumstance.

True, as long as you are just talking about surfaces that are only sliding over one another.

HOWEVER, when you are cutting a metal - like when the rifling is scoring the surface of a bullet - softer metals deform more easily and take less effort to produce a cut of the same dimensions.

That effort requires energy. Copper being harder than lead more energy is dissipated for the rifling to score the surface. That lost energy translates to a loss in velocity.

 

[Doubless]

Slightly off topic, but many years ago I was talking to a friend about the IHMSA internationals, held every other year at Ft. Stockton, if memory serves. I had just taken ownership of my 654 Silhouette, and was talking to Terry about how strong they were. He told me that he asked the same question of the marketing director a few years earlier, and was told this anecdote:

The guy came to me in the middle of a course and said "I think I ruined my revolver." When I asked him what he had done, he told me that he thought he had fired a squib and followed it with a full power silhouette load out of his 44 Mag silhouette from Freedom Arms. When asked why he thought that had happened he told the marketing director that he had a round that didn't feel right when he fired it, and that he had missed a chicken (pretty rare at 50 yards). The man said that the next shot had incredible recoil, and that was a miss as well, that recoil had sent the revolver almost 90 degrees from his leg, and well above the normal point where recoil stopped the revolver. Marty (the marketing director) told the guy "Well, you didn't hurt it, but don't be doing that @^*$ any more." They then went to the mat on the line the guy was lying on, and Marty said the man was shooting Hornady 240-grain Silhouette bullets.

I cannot verify the truthfulness of this, but I also have no reason to doubt it.

 

[Nemo288]

Did anyone ever test Trail Boss specifically with jacketed and with plated bullets (i.e. not just lead)? I shoot almost entirely soft lead bullets from my .38s, but it's always good to learn more/different loadings for the powders I do have.

In fact most of the few Trail Boss loads (as well as Tin Star) I have worked up have been with plated bullets.
I prefer the Rainier as they are concentric and have a shallow hollow base.
As noted above I try to keep them above 650 fps.
No problems noted.
Many plated bullet makers suggest using cast bullet loading data or at least starting there.
The Gold Dot SD bullets are plated bullets BTW.

I shoot very few jacketed bullets any more especially in the 44 special and don't shoot magnums much at all.
I want to release some energy I go supermag or express rounds like the 444.

As far as the "friction" thing goes, anyone who has slugged a bore knows it takes a bit of careful doing to get that bullet thru the barrel without dinging it.
That's why the softest lead slugs are used.
I would not want to be the guy who tries to slug a barrel using a jacketed bullet.
I suspect you would need some kind of hydraulic assistance if it could even be done without scoring the bore.

I have never played with moly intentionally and don't intend on doing so.
Once used a powdered plastic case filler that had moly in it (Pufflon) but gave it up mostly because of the utter mess.
It's as fine as dust.
Grex or similar shotgun buffer is way easier to use as are foam wads.

 

[austinjeane]

True, as long as you are just talking about surfaces that are only sliding over one another.

HOWEVER, when you are cutting a metal - like when the rifling is scoring the surface of a bullet - softer metals deform more easily and take less effort to produce a cut of the same dimensions.

That effort requires energy. Copper being harder than lead more energy is dissipated for the rifling to score the surface. That lost energy translates to a loss in velocity.

I believe you are making my point for me. When you fire a cast bullet (being a softer metal), it obtrudes to the bore (lands and
grooves), thereby causing more drag (or friction) than a harder copper alloy jacketed bullet. This is demonstrated in practice by initial pressures being higher in shooting cast bullets. I realize that a bullet caster can produce some extremely hard bullets, but I believe that this would be the case for most lead/antimony alloys. Anyway, I guess we'll all have to agree to disagree.

 

[BC38]

I believe you are making my point for me. When you fire a cast bullet (being a softer metal), it obtrudes to the bore (lands and
grooves), thereby causing more drag (or friction) than a harder copper alloy jacketed bullet. This is demonstrated in practice by initial pressures being higher in shooting cast bullets. I realize that a bullet caster can produce some extremely hard bullets, but I believe that this would be the case for most lead/antimony alloys. Anyway, I guess we'll all have to agree to disagree.

The difference in obturation between most cast and jacketed bullets is a negligible factor. Both obturate to a greater or lesser degree, and only the softest lead bullets obturate fully into the lands and grooves.

Think of it this way. Is it easier to use a plunger to force an oversized wad of toilet paper down the loo, vs trying to push the same sized wad of cloth? Or better yet, a plug of wood the same size? The answer is obvious.

Agree or disagree - or even agree to disagree - the facts and the physics don't change.

 

[Nemo288]

This is demonstrated in practice by initial pressures being higher in shooting cast bullets.

Can you supply some scientific data for this conclusion?
As I have stated earlier, QuickLOAD uses a lower start friction for cast bullets.
I know it's not a perfect model (there are none) but it's the best one out there for the money and there has to be a reason they do it that way.
Why would black powder ONLY guns, which are limited in their pressure capabilities all use cast bullets for the most part?

 

[TheHobbyist]

Please educate new comers to the community of gun collecting and shooting about squib loads. Many, many people do not realize this can happen. If something does not seem right, stop. Practice gun safety first.

My comment is not directed at any particular person, just a general statement. If you know someone who is new to shooting, please consider to educate them on this aspect.

 

[austinjeane]

The difference in obturation between most cast and jacketed bullets is a negligible factor. Both obturate to a greater or lesser degree, and only the softest lead bullets obturate fully into the lands and grooves.

Think of it this way. Is it easier to use a plunger to force an oversized wad of toilet paper down the loo, vs trying to push the same sized wad of cloth? Or better yet, a plug of wood the same size? The answer is obvious.

Agree or disagree - or even agree to disagree - the facts and the physics don't change.

You're right, you're wrong

 

[BC38]

You're right, you're wrong

OK man, YOU'RE right.
Everyone else is wrong...
including the published load data...
and the bullet and powder manufacturers...
and the folks who write ballistics software...
and the rest of the whole world.

 

[Speedo2]

Please see Bluedot37's attachment to post no.20 on the thread discussing "coated vs plated bullets".

 

[Nemo288]

Cool Article.
Interesting about the plated bullets.
I would not have guessed that.
Goes to show that when copper really is jammed into the grooves the friction is even higher.
Also may show why moly came and mostly went.
The effort expended doesn't really pay off with much.
Looks like coating is the most efficient way to avoid leading.
Just got my first box of coated 210gr. 44 bullets to play with in the specials.
MBC Cowboy #20 Hi-Tek
I like those I'll get some 240's either their #13 or #3
I like the flat bases they offer too (so would Elmer).
My regular cast 240 is the Beartooth 240 WFNPB which also has no bevel to the base.
Elmer would probably not have approved of Veral's design but I do!
The Cast Performance 260 works very well in the 44 magnum.
My favorite load uses 18 or 19 grains 2400 depending on the brand of brass.