So, I have finally recovered, from a fall at the house, to the point where I can go up and down the stairs again – and maybe do some reloading. I picked up a can of Trail Boss from a kind neighbor, and would like to load some mild .38 Spec’s. I have seen many times the prohibition ref using TB with jacketed bullets. What says the cognoscenti here at SWF? Are plated bullets (Berry 125’s sized .357) slippery enough and safe for Trail Boss?
Trail Boss with plated bullets?
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I have used them with no problem in large bore revolver cases with trail boss. Never tried it with .38 special. I strongly suspect that with anything except very low power loads it should be just fine.
robert - Thanks sir - I forgot to mention that I saw somewhere that the jacketed bullet warning wasn't about over-pressure. Seems like the article said that TB doesn't develop enough oomph (very technical term) and can lead to a bullet stuck in the barrel. I've seen articles about loading it in bottleneck rifle rounds with jacket bullets with no problems. Also didn't mention that I hope/plan to load the cases as full as possible without crushing the powder.
Plated bullets absolutely do not behave like lead bullets at all. Their friction in a bore is infinitely higher than cast or swaged lead bullets and this is extremely significant especially in revolvers because revolvers have a flash gap where critical pressure is allowed to bleed out.
I have bought, loaded and fired tens of thousands of Berry’s, Xtreme and Ranier and I have seen suggestions that they should be handled “somewhere between cast and jacketed” but I don’t agree.
My suggestion is that if you are new to plated bullets, run them as if you would run a new-to-you jacketed bullet and start 10% under max.
If you lodge one in a bore you’ll regret it.
I have bought, loaded and fired tens of thousands of Berry’s, Xtreme and Ranier and I have seen suggestions that they should be handled “somewhere between cast and jacketed” but I don’t agree.
My suggestion is that if you are new to plated bullets, run them as if you would run a new-to-you jacketed bullet and start 10% under max.
If you lodge one in a bore you’ll regret it.
If TB can be used in rifles with FMJ what info says you can not use it in pistol calibers.
Berrys load data
Load data from any load manual or website can be used. Full-metal jacketed, lead bullet, or plated bullet load data can be used as long as the following standards are adhered to:
Berrys load data
Load data from any load manual or website can be used. Full-metal jacketed, lead bullet, or plated bullet load data can be used as long as the following standards are adhered to:
- The data contains the correct grain weight of bullet.
- Berry's max recommended velocity is not exceeded. (This info is displayed on bullet boxes and product webpages.)
- Standard Plate Bullets Max Velocity: 1,250 fps.
- Thick-Plate Bullets (TP) Max Velocity: 1,500 fps.
- Do not over-crimp the bullet. Crimping so tight that bullet deformation occurs, or plating is separated causing visible exposure of the lead core will cause tumbling, key-holing, and reduced accuracy.
I appreciate any and all input as I am new to Trail Boss. That said, I don't think there is any non-canister powder that has more volume than TB. I think that, at least with lead bullets, a person call fill the case to 95%+ volume, with the bullet seated, and still be safe. Or, another way of saying this is the case can be safely filled as long as the powder is not compressed. And, I haven't been able to find any data for TB in handgun rounds with anything other than lead bullets. My goal is to have a powder with which I don't to have to worry about double-charges in .38 Spec. No other powder fits the bill for filling the case as well as TB does.
Edited to add: I didn’t want to unnecessarily bump this thread so I decided to edit. Thanks again for all the input. I am going to load up probably 10 rounds with TB plus the 125-g Berry bullets. I’ve got a couple of 3-inch GP100s so I will fire them through the strongest DA revolver I have. I don’t want to use the brass rod bullet removal technique, but if I do, the GP100 is probably the most difficult to damage of my few DA’s. It may be a couple of weeks but I will post back with the results after going to the range. Thanks!
Edited to add: I didn’t want to unnecessarily bump this thread so I decided to edit. Thanks again for all the input. I am going to load up probably 10 rounds with TB plus the 125-g Berry bullets. I’ve got a couple of 3-inch GP100s so I will fire them through the strongest DA revolver I have. I don’t want to use the brass rod bullet removal technique, but if I do, the GP100 is probably the most difficult to damage of my few DA’s. It may be a couple of weeks but I will post back with the results after going to the range. Thanks!
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scooter123
Member
IMR has a data sheet on the web pertaining to the use of Trail Boss for low recoil plinking loads for Magnum Rifle calibers such as the 300 Win Mag using Lead or Jacketed bullets.
They also have provided instruction for developing a load and determining the maximum charge for any rifle caliber. Note, most of the resulting pressures are above the maximum pressure for 38 special but below the maximum for 357 Magnum. So it's pretty obvious that Trail Boss can be perfectly safe when operated at pressures much higher than the typical Cowboy loads. Following is a link to this Data Sheet.
https://imrpowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/trail-boss-reduced-loads-r_p.pdf
Based on this procedure a good starting point would be to take the maximum charge for a hard cast bullet and see where it ends in the case. Then measure the length of that hard cast bullet to determine the Air Gap within an assembled cartridge. If the Air Gap is zero the obvious answer is that is the maximum charge you can use. Because that data sheet makes it pretty clear that Trail Boss should NOT be compressed. If you do have an Air Gap that leaves a bit of room for adjusting up if needed.
BTW, this is based on the assumption that a 158 grain RNFP Hard Cast will have the same overall length as a RNFP Plated bullet. I'll also note that my chronograph testing of Plated versus FMJ bullets has shown that Plated bullets behave the same as FMJ bullets. In plain English Plated bullets are simply a variant of a Jacketed bullet. However the thickness of he plating does matter and both Berry's and Extreme offer heavy plate bullets that are capable of Magnum Pistol velocities. They are NOT capable of Magnum Pistol caliber velocities from a Rifle, for that you want to use true jacketed bullets such as the Hornady XTP. BTW I have pushed the 140 grain XTP to 1900 fps from an 1892 Short Rifle without any leading or loss in accuracy.
If you simply want a low recoil load using a chronograph will make load development easy. BTW, you can purchase a decent chronograph nowadays for less than the cost of an 8 lbs. bottle of powder. What I would recommend is that you develop a load that produces at least 750 fps with your bullet of choice. Note, with a Shooting Chrony chronograph I found that the only way to get truly consistent results is to place the bullet path right at the height of the joint for the rods holding the sky screens, shoot lower or higher and the results can vary widely.
BTW, I have actually fired 125 grain plated bullets out of a model 67-1 at 400 fps. They felt like a 22LR cartridge and demonstrated excellent accuracy at 30 feet but I would NOT recommend loading a plated pullet to a velocity this low. Because IMO I was actually lucky to not have a squib. I'll also note that this was accidental due to my use of a powder (SR7625) that proved to be very position sensitive. This very same load would produce 700 fps if the barrel was pointed up before firing.
Thus my recommendation for staying at 750 fps or more. If reducing recoil below this point be very cautious and run 25 or 30 round Capability Studies at each load level to get a good solid reading for the Standard Deviation. Once you hit a point where the SD starts to increase then you have your absolute minimum load level.
Final note. The reason why you cannot find load data for Trail Boss with jacketed bullets in revolver calibers is because this powder was specifically developed for use in Cowboy Action Shooting where steel targets are the primary target. Shooting steel at 25 yards or more is relatively safe, at worst you might need a stitch or two to close up a cut from a ricochet. Start shooting steel at 10 yards or less and the cuts can get serious and careless use of safety classes can cost you an eye. So any sanctioned Cowboy Action event mandates the use of only lead bullets.
They also have provided instruction for developing a load and determining the maximum charge for any rifle caliber. Note, most of the resulting pressures are above the maximum pressure for 38 special but below the maximum for 357 Magnum. So it's pretty obvious that Trail Boss can be perfectly safe when operated at pressures much higher than the typical Cowboy loads. Following is a link to this Data Sheet.
https://imrpowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/trail-boss-reduced-loads-r_p.pdf
Based on this procedure a good starting point would be to take the maximum charge for a hard cast bullet and see where it ends in the case. Then measure the length of that hard cast bullet to determine the Air Gap within an assembled cartridge. If the Air Gap is zero the obvious answer is that is the maximum charge you can use. Because that data sheet makes it pretty clear that Trail Boss should NOT be compressed. If you do have an Air Gap that leaves a bit of room for adjusting up if needed.
BTW, this is based on the assumption that a 158 grain RNFP Hard Cast will have the same overall length as a RNFP Plated bullet. I'll also note that my chronograph testing of Plated versus FMJ bullets has shown that Plated bullets behave the same as FMJ bullets. In plain English Plated bullets are simply a variant of a Jacketed bullet. However the thickness of he plating does matter and both Berry's and Extreme offer heavy plate bullets that are capable of Magnum Pistol velocities. They are NOT capable of Magnum Pistol caliber velocities from a Rifle, for that you want to use true jacketed bullets such as the Hornady XTP. BTW I have pushed the 140 grain XTP to 1900 fps from an 1892 Short Rifle without any leading or loss in accuracy.
If you simply want a low recoil load using a chronograph will make load development easy. BTW, you can purchase a decent chronograph nowadays for less than the cost of an 8 lbs. bottle of powder. What I would recommend is that you develop a load that produces at least 750 fps with your bullet of choice. Note, with a Shooting Chrony chronograph I found that the only way to get truly consistent results is to place the bullet path right at the height of the joint for the rods holding the sky screens, shoot lower or higher and the results can vary widely.
BTW, I have actually fired 125 grain plated bullets out of a model 67-1 at 400 fps. They felt like a 22LR cartridge and demonstrated excellent accuracy at 30 feet but I would NOT recommend loading a plated pullet to a velocity this low. Because IMO I was actually lucky to not have a squib. I'll also note that this was accidental due to my use of a powder (SR7625) that proved to be very position sensitive. This very same load would produce 700 fps if the barrel was pointed up before firing.
Thus my recommendation for staying at 750 fps or more. If reducing recoil below this point be very cautious and run 25 or 30 round Capability Studies at each load level to get a good solid reading for the Standard Deviation. Once you hit a point where the SD starts to increase then you have your absolute minimum load level.
Final note. The reason why you cannot find load data for Trail Boss with jacketed bullets in revolver calibers is because this powder was specifically developed for use in Cowboy Action Shooting where steel targets are the primary target. Shooting steel at 25 yards or more is relatively safe, at worst you might need a stitch or two to close up a cut from a ricochet. Start shooting steel at 10 yards or less and the cuts can get serious and careless use of safety classes can cost you an eye. So any sanctioned Cowboy Action event mandates the use of only lead bullets.
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Baggy Wrinkle
Member
The concern over getting a plated bullet stuck in a barrel when using Trail Boss is real. Been there, done that. Won’t do it again. Specifically, I loaded Berry’s plated bullets with TB and shot them in a couple .38 revolvers. No problem in the Model 637. I think that was because of the short barrel. But, the pre WWII M&P didn’t fare so well. I didn’t realize a bullet jammed half way down the 6-inch barrel and fired a second. Fortunately, the result was only a bulged barrel and fixable. I still use TB but only with lead SWC bullets.
With a plated (or jacketed!) bullet going horribly slow in a revolver, the problem is that the major pitfall is no manner of consistent. If it happens that the bullet gets enough momentum to keep moving down the bore and get out, it's safe. If it slows to a crawl before exiting, the gas that is doing all of the work simply finds it's easiest route for escape. We want that escape to be out of the muzzle, behind the bullet. But the gas does NOT CARE and if the bullet stops, it will just escape out of the flash gap between cylinder and forcing cone.
Sure, you can stick a lead bullet also, but with a lead bullet... they move so much easier and with less friction that:
A) they are much less likely to stick
B) if/when it does happen, they are infinitely more easy to remove
If you make a suspect and FAR to low powdered load with a plated bullet, that first shot might work and seem fine. Maybe the second shot, through a whole cylinder. Maybe a half a box. But the one slug that DOESN'T make it out of the bore is going to wreck the hell out of your day. And if you drop the hammer on another round without knowing, then it is going to ruin a lot more than your day.
Sure, you can stick a lead bullet also, but with a lead bullet... they move so much easier and with less friction that:
A) they are much less likely to stick
B) if/when it does happen, they are infinitely more easy to remove
If you make a suspect and FAR to low powdered load with a plated bullet, that first shot might work and seem fine. Maybe the second shot, through a whole cylinder. Maybe a half a box. But the one slug that DOESN'T make it out of the bore is going to wreck the hell out of your day. And if you drop the hammer on another round without knowing, then it is going to ruin a lot more than your day.
I agree that it's likely the most bulky powder on the market -- that's specifically what they were trying to engineer when they created the stuff.
I truly understand your concern about excess space in the .38 Special. The .38 Special is a round that never needed that space and is NOT better for having that space. That space exists because it worked great with black powder, but for smokeless, it's far too much space to still properly and safely keep the pressure within spec at 17,500 PSI. .45 Colt is the same (worse, even) and .45 Colt may have been the single driving force behind the creation of Trail Boss. That case is gargantuan and keeping the pressure down at 14k PSI or whatever .45 Colt peaks at... damn difficult with a gargantuan case and a dusting of smokeless powder.
Experience has sent me down the road that you are on right now. I've tried many different routes with exactly this in mind and ultimately my answer has been that my process, checks and balances and quality control at the load bench is what works best for me.
Yes, there's enough room in a .38 Special case to double or triple charge the load using the typical and best powders for .38 Special. I cannot fix that pitfall well with Trail Boss. Wadding or corn meal isn't for me. I'm also not going to sink a heavy bullet ever lower in to the case to eat up the space.
So then, I'm ultra-vigilant when it comes to my powder charges. My best route for that has been to charge each case in a load block and then have an entire tray, typically 50 rounds, all charged with powder. I use a bright overhead light to scan each and every piece visually and ensure that the same level of powder is in each piece. Sure, I could have 50 pieces with a double charge... but I don't. Pull one of the 50 in each tray and dump it on the scale and check check check.
When you are convinced that all 50 have the right charge, cap each one in the tray with a bullet. Run each round in to the press after all 50 have a slug sitting on top.
This process is GOLD if you load single stage. If you load progressive and you worry about a double charge, get a bright light directly in to the charged case and make use of a powder cop die if you can.
If you only know any particular round in your process is a double charge because it spills and makes a mess, you may already be well behind the safety curve in your process.
Get your process down and repeat it to the letter every time. The net result is fantastic handloads and soaring confidence in your methods and your ammo. When you are on the firing line and loading up with ammo that you are dead sure certain is built properly (because YOU did it) it actually makes you shoot better. You haven't left chance to some ammo production facility a thousand miles away. You know what is in each round because you have seen it with your eyes.
