OP
tat2dchad
Member
did you A. use the Duty/Carry(?) or the Tactical one?? and B. did you add the Apex reset as well?
Trigger Swap...what you did and why?
- Thread starter tat2dchad
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did you A. use the Duty/Carry(?) or the Tactical one?? and B. did you add the Apex reset as well?
BennyS
Member
Sorry, I should have said my 9 is a shield
tactical404
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Cant speak for all states, but in GA there's a stand your ground law when it comes to someone breaking in your house. No duty to retreat, and you're allowed to use deadly force to protect your personal property as well. Of course that comes along with the stipulation of "thinking" that the person could cause you harm....but someone breaking into your home in the middle of the night generally fits that bill. Now if they see you and run and you shoot anyway..then you dun goofed.
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Hello everybody, long time browser with very little posts. I usually have no need to comment, but I felt like I need to throw some of my opinions out there. These are only my opinions and I feel that I'm not an expert, but do have some experience in this subject.
Like others have said, if you are involved in a shooting, good or bad, you may or may not be sued. Being sued is NOT a sure thing.
If you are involved in a good (justified) shooting, and you altered your pistol, and you are getting sued for it. You were probably going to get sued for something anyway. The altering is just another area to be attacked.
If you are involved in a bad shooting, whether or not you altered your pistol, you are f-ed.
I like to think of it this way...If altering of the pistol increases performance, and is still safe/reliable, go for it. Just be prepared to explain your reasons if that day comes. Be articulate, be realistic. There is no need to make a trigger on an MP carry pistol 3 pounds. But if you want to add apex parts, lighten it some, and make it a smooth reliable pull, I'm all for it.
For most LEO and CCW carrying citizens, a factory recent made MP trigger that's been fired and broken in, is probably fine. I prefer the Apex sear and ultimate striker block. It lightens up the trigger some and makes it smoother. I have only been carrying the MP pistol since last summer, but a daily basis, all day/night long. It has 6 thousand rounds through it since June 2013. Most of those rounds have been with an Apex sear. The only issues were ammo related, on a single day in August, with ammo that shouldn't of even been used. Zero malfunctions besides that.
For most people, I would rather see them shoot and learn the pistol, break it in, and get some training, before making alterations to it. Figure out what you really need and what you don't.
Once again, these are only my opinions and hopefully it makes sense to the readers here.
By the way, I'm in my 15th year as an LEO, a majority of my career has been spent in plain clothes/undercover assignments. I'm one of my departments firearms instructors and an MP armorer.
I have been in numerous shootings where I was either the Officer or the witness to another Officer discharging their pistol. I can tell you for a fact, that in my involvement, I was never even asked about alterations to my pistol. I was asked a lot of other questions, tactics, number of rounds in magazine, etc. Luckily the shootings were justified. If they were not, like I said above, you are still f-ed whether or not the pistol is altered. Probably more f-ed if you had lightened up the trigger and had harmed somebody by accident.
Altering the pistol and possibly being scrutinized for it and/or sued at a later time is a risk I'm wiling to take. I feel the alternations allow me to shoot very slightly more accurate, which may or may not save my life or someone else's.
Thank You
Like others have said, if you are involved in a shooting, good or bad, you may or may not be sued. Being sued is NOT a sure thing.
If you are involved in a good (justified) shooting, and you altered your pistol, and you are getting sued for it. You were probably going to get sued for something anyway. The altering is just another area to be attacked.
If you are involved in a bad shooting, whether or not you altered your pistol, you are f-ed.
I like to think of it this way...If altering of the pistol increases performance, and is still safe/reliable, go for it. Just be prepared to explain your reasons if that day comes. Be articulate, be realistic. There is no need to make a trigger on an MP carry pistol 3 pounds. But if you want to add apex parts, lighten it some, and make it a smooth reliable pull, I'm all for it.
For most LEO and CCW carrying citizens, a factory recent made MP trigger that's been fired and broken in, is probably fine. I prefer the Apex sear and ultimate striker block. It lightens up the trigger some and makes it smoother. I have only been carrying the MP pistol since last summer, but a daily basis, all day/night long. It has 6 thousand rounds through it since June 2013. Most of those rounds have been with an Apex sear. The only issues were ammo related, on a single day in August, with ammo that shouldn't of even been used. Zero malfunctions besides that.
For most people, I would rather see them shoot and learn the pistol, break it in, and get some training, before making alterations to it. Figure out what you really need and what you don't.
Once again, these are only my opinions and hopefully it makes sense to the readers here.
By the way, I'm in my 15th year as an LEO, a majority of my career has been spent in plain clothes/undercover assignments. I'm one of my departments firearms instructors and an MP armorer.
I have been in numerous shootings where I was either the Officer or the witness to another Officer discharging their pistol. I can tell you for a fact, that in my involvement, I was never even asked about alterations to my pistol. I was asked a lot of other questions, tactics, number of rounds in magazine, etc. Luckily the shootings were justified. If they were not, like I said above, you are still f-ed whether or not the pistol is altered. Probably more f-ed if you had lightened up the trigger and had harmed somebody by accident.
Altering the pistol and possibly being scrutinized for it and/or sued at a later time is a risk I'm wiling to take. I feel the alternations allow me to shoot very slightly more accurate, which may or may not save my life or someone else's.
Thank You
shooter5112
Member
After you read those Ayoob stories that support his ideas, do some research on them.
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Many of the trigger modification threads are spurred by folks who are sport shooters. Their interest is to shoot itty-bitty groups, preferrably with little effort/practice on their part.
You also get a lot of this from folks who like to personalize/customize their firearms. Very similar to those who buy a new car and then drop thousands on new wheels/tires, better sound systems etc.
A standard answer from trainers to the question of "Whats the best investment I can make in my new firearm?" is practice ammunition.
If you purchased your firearm for defensive purposes and the factory didn't glitch anything (if they did, they'll fix it free), you need do nothing but clean, lubricate, feed and practice with the weapon as purchased. Some sight adjustement may be necessary.
My M&P (purchased 2006) is the only stock firearm I own. It simply didn't need any alteration.
BTW, Mas does more firearm related trials per year across the country than many attorneys do in their lives.
You also get a lot of this from folks who like to personalize/customize their firearms. Very similar to those who buy a new car and then drop thousands on new wheels/tires, better sound systems etc.
A standard answer from trainers to the question of "Whats the best investment I can make in my new firearm?" is practice ammunition.
If you purchased your firearm for defensive purposes and the factory didn't glitch anything (if they did, they'll fix it free), you need do nothing but clean, lubricate, feed and practice with the weapon as purchased. Some sight adjustement may be necessary.
My M&P (purchased 2006) is the only stock firearm I own. It simply didn't need any alteration.
BTW, Mas does more firearm related trials per year across the country than many attorneys do in their lives.
I've polished the trigger components in my SD guns...
It could very well lead to scrutiny, but I enjoy the guns much more and the chance I will actually need them for SD is very low.
That said, I believe when people tell me that a modified gun opens the door to litigation. Especially the 'accidental' shooting. Like I intended to shoot the bad guy twice, but three rounds went off with the final round being the fatal one... Even if it was a good shoot, I believe a lawyer could twist the shoot into something a jury would award damages for, thinking my insurance would pay for the cost, or perhaps the jury would look for that middle ground where they can convict someone of a slightly lesser crime and both parties win and the jury gets to go home....
.
It could very well lead to scrutiny, but I enjoy the guns much more and the chance I will actually need them for SD is very low.
That said, I believe when people tell me that a modified gun opens the door to litigation. Especially the 'accidental' shooting. Like I intended to shoot the bad guy twice, but three rounds went off with the final round being the fatal one... Even if it was a good shoot, I believe a lawyer could twist the shoot into something a jury would award damages for, thinking my insurance would pay for the cost, or perhaps the jury would look for that middle ground where they can convict someone of a slightly lesser crime and both parties win and the jury gets to go home....
.
shooter5112
Member
The bolded part above implies that the third shot would have been perfectly justified if intentional. If so, it would not matter if the shot was fired accidentally. Negligence is willful, risk creating behavior. For a lawyer to twist that into something liable, it would be necessary to show that pointing a loaded gun (the risk creating behavior) at an armed attacker was negligence.
Rastoff
US Veteran
This is a very fine line in a self-defense shooting. Your right to self-defense ends the instant the threat is stopped. So, using that same scenario, if the threat was stopped after the second shot and you still fired a third, you could be charged with being the aggressor. The prosecution would have to prove that the third shot was fired after the threat was stopped though.
This is why teaching people to empty their magazines into the bad guy is not wise.
I don't think so!
The OP asked about modding the gun and we are discussing the implications.
I agree with Rastoff, but my point is more toward just having the issue brought up in front of a jury....
Let's say the jury is hung, and there's a few hold outs that want to acquit and several that want to convict....
They all want to go home. It's not a crazy thought that they may compromise and convict a person of negligent discharge of that last round due to the fact that the trigger was lightened and the shooter was shaking and highly agitated. The jury may feel it is a fair compromise.... But for the shooter it's almost as bad as a full conviction.
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Rastoff
US Veteran
This is a reasonable line of thought. However, there isn't a single case where this has happened.
So, my line of reasoning is, I'd rather have a gun that gave me a higher probability of hitting my target, thus saving my life, than risk missing that target and dieing or accidentally hitting an innocent. If a little work on the trigger will help that, then I see it as the right thing to do.
Now, if someone could post case after case where the shooter was convicted because of modifications, then I might be persuaded in a different direction.
shooter5112
Member
I think it is a crazy thought. Negligence is willful behavior. That necessarily means that legally, a negligent discharge is a shot fired intentionally in a reckless or dangerous manner. Such as shooting into the air in a populated area or shooting close to someone as a prank. "Negligent Discharge of a Firearm" | California Penal Code 246.3 PC
Rastoff
US Veteran
Does the jury have the option to change the charge? I thought they could only come with three answers; guilty, not guilty and hung.
Juries can disagree with the application of the law, or the basis of the law itself, through jury nullification, a common law tenet rarely explained to juries or welcomed by the legal profession.
They can choose to acquit (most often) someone who may meet the legal of definition of guilty under an unjust or misapplied law, or they can convict when by the law it appears acquittal would have been appropriate.
It is a rarely used and legally contentious option for a jury, but its abuse can be overcome by a judge, who can set aside a jury verdict and/or adjust sentencing, or allow an appeal for a guilty verdict to go to a higher court.
It's more complicated than this brief explanation, but it is an option in most jurisdictions.
Rastoff
US Veteran
So, the jury can't "compromise" and convict you of a lesser crime, right?
A jury cannot convict on a crime that has not been charged. However, most prosecutors will bring a series of lesser charges to get a conviction at some level. While finding a defendant innocent of the highest charge, a jury has the option to convict on one or more lesser charges or to acquit of all charges.
OP
tat2dchad
Member
Did a little research.....what I have found is:
If you alter anything, your gun becomes custom and unnecessary.
Even if the situation was determind just and you are found not guilty...
Because you altered your gun you can then be sued civilly. You could be sued either way but an altered gun can give an attorney something to use inb his favor. Much like O.J. Simpson, found not guilty of murder but was sues Cecily for wrongfully death.
So my thoughts....id rather be alive and being sued than dead. Ill take my chances and pray in never have to find out
If you alter anything, your gun becomes custom and unnecessary.
Even if the situation was determind just and you are found not guilty...
Because you altered your gun you can then be sued civilly. You could be sued either way but an altered gun can give an attorney something to use inb his favor. Much like O.J. Simpson, found not guilty of murder but was sues Cecily for wrongfully death.
So my thoughts....id rather be alive and being sued than dead. Ill take my chances and pray in never have to find out
OP
tat2dchad
Member
Did a little research.....what I have found is:
If you alter anything, your gun becomes custom and unnecessary.
Even if the situation was determind just and you are found not guilty...
Because you altered your gun you can then be sued civilly. You could be sued either way but an altered gun can give an attorney something to use inb his favor. Much like O.J. Simpson, found not guilty of murder but was sues Civilly for wrongfully death.
So my thoughts....id rather be alive and being sued than dead. Ill take my chances and pray in never have to find out
If you alter anything, your gun becomes custom and unnecessary.
Even if the situation was determind just and you are found not guilty...
Because you altered your gun you can then be sued civilly. You could be sued either way but an altered gun can give an attorney something to use inb his favor. Much like O.J. Simpson, found not guilty of murder but was sues Civilly for wrongfully death.
So my thoughts....id rather be alive and being sued than dead. Ill take my chances and pray in never have to find out
Bkreutz
US Veteran
I have adopted the Alfred E Neuman philosophy. Redirect Notice
