Triple 7 in the 32-20 cartridge

[M5741]

After a few trips to the gun club, trying out multiple smokeless powders, and multiple charge weights, I'm going to try out some FF T7. After about 15 different loads of smokeless and the best groups at 15 yards being "mob" minute of baseball, I'm going to try filling the case. Ken Waters stated in his book, that in his opinion, the issue with the 32-20 cartridge regarding accuracy was the extreme standard deviations with the velocity caused by inconsistent burning of the light charges of smokeless powder. I been reading up on using the T7 powder and it's charges as compared to the BP. John Taffin wrote and article on using T7 in the 32-20 cartridge and a weighed charge being 16.6 grains. Well, I used my #26 rotor in my Little Dandy measure. Placed it over the case and dumped the powder. I raised the LD up from the full case and the powder spilled on the table. I dropped another charge in the powder pan on my scales, and weighed it. It weighed only 14.9 grains. So I dropped the amount of powder down until it would fill the case to the proper height and still leave room for the bullet to touch the powder when seated. I measured that charge, and it weighed 12.5 grains. What am I missing??? Anyone use T7, and what was the powder charge with enough room to seat the bullet???

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Your accuracy may not be the ammo's powder charge. Old 32-20 revolvers are often very worn.

I've used WW231, Unique, Trail Boss, and FFFg Goex Black Powder in my S&W 1902 4" (Circa 1902) and my Colt Police Positive Special 6" (circa 1919) with about the same "Baseball Groups" at 20 yards. Those same loads in a 1990's Marlin 1894 carbine got 1" groups at 100 yards using tang sights.

If you 32-20 revolver is a S&W, It was made before 1929, regardless of shipping date. Be sure to use lead or coated bullets. Jacketed bullets are safe, but cause excess wear. The 117 grain Flat Nose bullet is what the guns were regulated to at the factory (not the lighter High Speed rifle ammo).

I know a smuggler from prohibition times, that had to shoot his way out of a few tight spots. His 6" S&W hit his targets just fine.

Ivan

 

[TIMETRIPPER]

My take on Ken Waters article was that a good crimp helps to increase accuracy. I've used Unique, Trail Boss and Bullseye in my 32-20 loads for both my S&W revolvers, an old Stevens 44 rifle and a Winchester model 92 from the 1920s. Bullets used were Remington's 98 gr RN lead, Hornady's 90 gr swaged SWC, but mostly the 115 gr Lyman cast I from their #3118 mold.

The Stevens will shoot to under 2" at 100 yards with the same loads that my S&W gives 4" at 50 feet. I think it's mostly me, as I do the same with most of my other handgun calibers.

I use a Lee factory crimp die and separate cases by manufacturer as the 32-20 is notorious for differences in case length. And it is important to trim all to the same length to allow for a consistent crimp. Best to seat and crimp in two steps, regardless of what type crimp used.

As far as your issue with T7 metering weights, perhaps Taffin was using a finer granulation, but it seems to be to much a difference from what you experienced for that alone to be a cause. But just use a load that fills your cases and go from there.

You got me thinking about trying some T7 myself.

John

 

[desi2358]

When loading with black powder or one of the modern substitute powders it can be useful to use an extended drop tube for the charge. The long drop seems to compact the powder into the case whereas going straight from the measure does not. A load of powder that fills the case to the mouth without a drop tube will usually settle below the case mouth when poured in from a longer drop tube.

 

[M5741]

I found out what the discrepancy is. MY BAD. I went back and re-read the article by John Taffin about loading for the 32-20 cartridge. He stated; " his most used load was 16.6 grains of FFF black powder. (or) the equivalent by volume of Triple7). "Not 16.6 grains of Triple7 as I originally stated".That'll teach me to read more carefully. So, the 12.5 grains of Triple7 by volume in the case is correct. Thank you all for
your input.

 

[M5741]

The revolver is a Smith/Wesson 5 screw. One member here posted that with the serial number 945xx, it was manufactured approximately around 1921-1922. I do load with 100 grain rnfp coated T&B Bullets out of Sweethome Oregon. I started with 100 Starline cases.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I started with 100 Starline cases.

In the 1990's, Midway ran a sale on Remington 32-20 brass: 500 brass for $32. I wish I had bought 3 bags instead of 1! Plus, I have several hundred I bought "Once Fired." I ended up with about 30 prewar balloon head cases, I keep saying I'm going to load them with 20 grains of FFFg, but in 30 years I still haven't got around to it.

Ivan

 

[M5741]

No time like the present.

 

[toad67]

Not sure about triple 7 in 32-20, but I use triple 16 in my flower beds....
Seriously though, try titegroup in your 32-20. I just shot some test loads of 3.2 grains over a Winchester SPP, under a 100 grain Missouri bullets 100 grain coated FP. Shot pretty decent, avg speed of 805 fps with an SD of 35.
Think that's what I'm going to fill up the rest of my brass with.

 

[M5741]

I've read several posts that some folks have had good success with the Titegroup.

 

[toad67]

It's clean and non-position sensitive, as well as relatively available.

 

[Wyo]

Mike Venturino’s favorite load used a 100 or 115 gr. bullet with 3.5 gr. of Titegroup. I’ve used that myself and get 915 fps in a 7 1/2” Colt SAA with very good accuracy. I’ve also used John Taffin’s load of 10.0 gr of 2400 with the 115 bullet and get 1289 fps in that same Colt. That also gets to 1702 fps in a Winchester Model 53 with excellent accuracy. That load is a real killer but I wouldn’t get anywhere near an old S&W with it. I wouldn’t mention it here but Taffin published it a long time ago so it’s already out there. Finally, Skeeter liked 5.5 gr of Unique with a 105 gr cast hollowpoint. Don’t know what the velocity for that was but I suppose it was up there. As you can probably tell, the 32-20 is one of my favorites!

 

[M5741]

I'm really enjoying mine as well. I went out to the range on St.Pattys Day. Tried 5 grains of Herco and a T&B 100 grain coated bullet at 15 yards. Fired 12 rounds. Ten shots in 3" centered on the bull, and two fliers. Velocity average was 969 fps. ES 162 fps. SD 55 fps. So far out of all the loads fired, it is the best. So far, I've loaded HP-38, AA2, CFE-Pistol, Unique, and Herco. I'm really lookin forward to shooting the 12.5 grain Triple7 loads.

 

[Brooks]

Ya, I picked up 4 lbs of Herco a couple months ago and I'm loading 118gr Bear Creek RNFP with 5 grains of Herco.
A little more velocity than 4.3 grs of Unique..... Herco's brother.

As far as the T7 goes, I think you should use FFF instead of FF. The grains of BP by volume are different than by weight for smokeless.

How is the cleanup with the T7? How dirty does it make the gun?

 

[M5741]

I'm using FF T7 because that's what I have. If it works, I'll finish that bottle up. I do understand the the volume measurement. The proper volume of T7, without compression, in a Starline 32-20 case weighs 12.5 grains. Thats tapping the filled case to settle the powder charge. As far as clean-up goes with T7 in the 32-20 revolver,
I have no idea. Never used it before now. From what I've read in several posts and articles, clean-up is not a big issue.

 

[glowe]

I have the luxury of being able to still reload with Trail Boss since I bought lots of it when it was readily available. This powder just about fills the case in all calibers and SD is extremely low. I have found over the years that bulky powders in small cases solves the problem of high SD. Puflon also offers another option to stabilize the load no matter how small, and this is another way to lower SD.

Black powder substitutes load just like BP itself. First, do not assume you know how much powder to put in the case. You have to determine how deep you are seating the bullet. Use that measurement minus 1/16" and place powder in the case until you hit that level. Then measure the amount of powder in the case and that is how much to use. Do not just drop 20 grains in the case since it will be way too much in modern brass. Measure as noted above and you will stay out of trouble.

Cleanup is the same as BP, you have to use soap and water to dissolve the residue, dry and lube the barrel to prevent rust. Before shooting, dry the bore of oils since it turns to a sticky mess when used with any of these powders.

 

[H Richard]

Did you shoot your groups over a solid rest? Is the revolver in good condition, proper timing, headspace, BC Gap? Is the crown sharp and straight?
There are a lot of other reasons why a revolver doesn't shoot tight groups than the loading.

 

[M5741]

Fired over a solid rest, yes. Muzzle and crown are great.Timing is good, as is cylinder lock up. Very little rotational slop. I replaced the cylinder stop, which helped tighten the cylinder lock-up. Replaced the center pin, as the original pin was slightly bent and wore offset where it goes into the recoil shield. B/C gap is .012. As for the good condition goes, it is mechanically sound.
Went to the range yesterday (Saturday). Tried out the 12.5 grains of Triple 7 loads with the 100 grain .313 rnfp coated bullets. Chronograph 10 shot print out.
Hi = 826 fps
Lo = 760 fps
Av = 790 fps
ES = 66
SD = 19
@ 15 yards. 10 shots 3.25", 8 shots in 2.5".
Bore started getting fouled badly after 20 shots. Second target 10 shots fired. Only 5 hit the 8"x 1" paper. 4.5"group. I don't have a clue where the other 5 shots went. I'm not going to put any more time testing with the T7. Fouling was terrible. I need to get some 115 grain bullets to try out.

 

[alwslate]

My experience with Triple 7 has been with BP firearms. It is advertised as needing only water for cleanup. But it leaves a chalky dry fouling in the bore that literally prevents another bullet from being seated unless the bore is cleaned after every shot with a wet patch, followed by a dry patch. I learned the hard way after having to pull bullets after only one shot without cleaning the bore. So Triple 7 might not be a good choice for handloading ctg revolvers.

 

[M5741]

alwslate:
I definately agree with your analysis. After the first 10 shots over the chronograph, last looked down the bore. It was caked with fouling. I swabbed with a brush wrapped with copper chore-boy to remove the fouling, or, most of it. Then I fired for group and poi. After 20 shots at the two targets, the fouling told "the rest of the story". About 15 years ago, I was loading and shooting with a Uberti 1885 Hi-Wall. It was chambered in 45-70. I loaded 70 grains of Goex FF under the classic 457125 500 grain rn 20-1 alloy. I had mounted a cheep Pedersoli Vernier sight. This rifle would shoot 1" 5 shot groups at 100 yards easily, if I did my part. For fouling control, all I did was use a blow-tube between shots. Cleaning was easy. I used hot tap water with a little dawn in a bucket. I would stick the muzzle in the bucket, pull'n push the cleaning rod with a patched brush. When pushed out the muzzle, the patch would lose the fouling, and suck up water into the bore. After, just dry the bore and oil.
This T7 is a whole new "aminal". I'll leave it to the BP shooters.