I'm trying to 'tune' my Performance Center M&P 15-22 to cycle CCI Standard Velocity and Suppressor rounds with a JARD 2.5 lb, 2-stage trigger group. I've got it working (with a light JP hammer spring) except that I get light-hammer-strike failure-to-fire's about every six rounds. I'm wondering about trying to cut a loop off the stock bolt return spring. Any thoughts or suggestions?
Tuning a 15-22 to shoot CCI Suppressor
- Thread starter acw18
- Start date
Register to hide this ad
My $0.02...
Put in a HEAVIER hammer spring. CCI SV should cycle (I don't have a PC version, however, I run do run CCI SV through mine with NO issue; using a Geiselle trigger, yellow TRIGGER spring, stock HAMMER spring).
The bolt return spring (buffer spring) has NOTHING to do with how hard the firing pin is hit, or light strikes. That is COMPLETELY controlled by the speed and mass of the hammer, and the strength of the spring on the firing pin.
The buffer spring will determine whether there is bolt hold open on last round and whether you have overall cycling issues (failure to feed, for instance).
Cheers!
Put in a HEAVIER hammer spring. CCI SV should cycle (I don't have a PC version, however, I run do run CCI SV through mine with NO issue; using a Geiselle trigger, yellow TRIGGER spring, stock HAMMER spring).
The bolt return spring (buffer spring) has NOTHING to do with how hard the firing pin is hit, or light strikes. That is COMPLETELY controlled by the speed and mass of the hammer, and the strength of the spring on the firing pin.
The buffer spring will determine whether there is bolt hold open on last round and whether you have overall cycling issues (failure to feed, for instance).
Cheers!
Change the fire pin spring to a slightly lighter one and you will have no more issues.
Here you go.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-15-22/463936-light-strikes.html#post138954141
Here you go.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-15-22/463936-light-strikes.html#post138954141
Last edited:
Thanks Sithlord and Mark15/22. I should have explained that, with the hammer spring that came with the JARD trigger group, the gun always fired and ejected the casing, but the bolt did not come back with enough force for the assembly to be caught by the reset hook. So after firing, the action picked up a new round and the hammer came down lightly on this casing. (Happily not powerfully enough to fire and send the gun into full auto).
The slightly lighter JR hammer spring solved the above problem but introduced the light-strike issue. So, now I'm trying to increase the firing pin force enough to ensure no fail-to-fires, without having the hammer fail to reset after each shot.
Seems like my options are the lighter firing pin spring that Sithlord recommends, or a heavier trigger spring with a lighter bolt return spring. I've ordered the firing pin spring that Sithlord recommends and I'll keep you-all posted...
Either of you know of a video or other instructions for bolt disassembly?
Thanks again!
The slightly lighter JR hammer spring solved the above problem but introduced the light-strike issue. So, now I'm trying to increase the firing pin force enough to ensure no fail-to-fires, without having the hammer fail to reset after each shot.
Seems like my options are the lighter firing pin spring that Sithlord recommends, or a heavier trigger spring with a lighter bolt return spring. I've ordered the firing pin spring that Sithlord recommends and I'll keep you-all posted...
Either of you know of a video or other instructions for bolt disassembly?
Thanks again!
To correct your statement - Mark15/22 suggested a lighter firing pin spring.
Some things to check before getting all swap happy:
1) Does the firearm cycle with the original trigger/hammer and corresponding springs using CCI SV?
2) Does the bolt ride FREELY on the rail guides
If the firearm cycles with the stock trigger/hammer, then it should have enough force to reset your JARD trigger.
Many people have slightly bent rail guides; this impedes the motion and travel of the bolt, causing cycling issues (failure to feed, ejection issues, no bolt hold open).
To take apart the bolt to gain access to the firing pin... Remove the bolt from the rails. Directly below the raised portion that catches the charging handle, there is a hole in the bolt; there is a roll pin in that hole. Knock out the roll pin and the firing pin falls out.
[not my picture]:
Some things to check before getting all swap happy:
1) Does the firearm cycle with the original trigger/hammer and corresponding springs using CCI SV?
2) Does the bolt ride FREELY on the rail guides
If the firearm cycles with the stock trigger/hammer, then it should have enough force to reset your JARD trigger.
Many people have slightly bent rail guides; this impedes the motion and travel of the bolt, causing cycling issues (failure to feed, ejection issues, no bolt hold open).
To take apart the bolt to gain access to the firing pin... Remove the bolt from the rails. Directly below the raised portion that catches the charging handle, there is a hole in the bolt; there is a roll pin in that hole. Knock out the roll pin and the firing pin falls out.
[not my picture]:
When you get the spring cut it a couple of wines longer then the stock spring and you will be golden. My 15-was having the light strikes when upgraded my trigger. Sent trigger back to velocity trigger and they upgraded the hammer spring still some light strikes. Did the firing pen springs not one issues since. It shoots any and everything I put in her. It loves the CCI and Federal suppressor ammo
Great. I plan to cut and install the new spring next weekend and will let you all know how it works.
Also, for folks who are reluctant to cut their springs to size, this link shows a Hilman Group spring that also solves the problem:
Belt-Fed Hell: S&W M&P 15-22 Firing Pin Spring Swap for the Timney 3lb Trigger
(This link is from the same thread where you provide the McMaster Carr spring info).
Hilman part number 851616. Size is 1-5/8 x 3/16, which is almost exactly the same as the stock spring.
Also, for folks who are reluctant to cut their springs to size, this link shows a Hilman Group spring that also solves the problem:
Belt-Fed Hell: S&W M&P 15-22 Firing Pin Spring Swap for the Timney 3lb Trigger
(This link is from the same thread where you provide the McMaster Carr spring info).
Hilman part number 851616. Size is 1-5/8 x 3/16, which is almost exactly the same as the stock spring.
Majorlk
Member
Be careful you do not overlubricate. Unlike ARs, the 15-22 is not designed to run wet. The only lubrication needed is a small drop of CLP, or something similar, on the hammer and trigger pins; a single drop on either side of the bolt rails and on the bolt stop. Nothing else needs lube. Do not use any wet lube on the firing pin, if you lube it at all use dry graphite. In most cases,if you can see the lube, you used too much. Cleaning and lubing every 2-3 hundred rounds is over kill.
Good to know. I've been keeping the trigger group dry except a thin film on ballistol on the pins before reinstalling them. But, for the bolt/chamber/barrel I've been following Hickok45's 'doesn't hurt to leave a film of ballistol' philosophy. (This strategy works on my Keltec SU16 and Ruger American Rimfire). I'll try your advice on the 15-22 and see how it performs.
Majorlk
Member
The bolt on the 15-22 is a "sloppy" fit in the upper, so all lube really does is attract unburned powder and other debris. At most, just spray the bolt and then wipe the oil off.
OK, so I tried the lighter firing pin spring and running dry, and either way I'm still getting cycling problems with the 2.5 lb 2-stage JARD trigger (light strikes and failure to reset hammer). I've tried everything JARD has suggested (various JARD spring swaps) except cutting a couple of coils off the bolt return spring.
Returned the gun to stock today. 20+ rounds each of Federal Suppressor, CCI Suppressor and CCI Std Velocity all ran perfectly.
I think I'd like to try Mark 15/22's setup with Giselle trigger and light firing pin spring. Mark do you know your Giselle model number? Any other already-proven-to-work setup suggestions are welcome! I'm really eager to switch as the stock trigger on the 15-22 performance center is the worst trigger I have on any rifle, by far.
Returned the gun to stock today. 20+ rounds each of Federal Suppressor, CCI Suppressor and CCI Std Velocity all ran perfectly.
I think I'd like to try Mark 15/22's setup with Giselle trigger and light firing pin spring. Mark do you know your Giselle model number? Any other already-proven-to-work setup suggestions are welcome! I'm really eager to switch as the stock trigger on the 15-22 performance center is the worst trigger I have on any rifle, by far.
This thread only mentions Geiselle once - my post.. 
FWIW, I have run the following triggers in my 15-22 without any issues:
1) ALG ACT ($~70). Combine with JP Yellow Trigger Springs
2) CMC Drop in trigger (~150, got it with the slide fire stock)
3) Geiselle SD3G (~250) with JP Yellow Trigger Springs
4) Geiselle Super-V Trigger, with JP Yellow Trigger Springs
FWIW, I read an article comparing drop in triggers to other triggers; In general, drop in triggers have less creep, less over travel, crisper break, better reset than non-drop in triggers. I don't personally find a huge difference between the ALG ACT and SD3G or CMC drop in, except the SD3G has a very short reset for quick follow up shots.
Never tried a JARD, and I doubt that any of my triggers are in the 2.5lb range. 3-4.5 is sufficient for me, so long as the break is clean and creep is minimized.
Here's a link to the drop in trigger article. More information that I could absorb, complete with charts and graphics:
The AR-15 Drop-In Trigger Roundup - The Truth About Guns
I hope that helps!
FWIW, I have run the following triggers in my 15-22 without any issues:
1) ALG ACT ($~70). Combine with JP Yellow Trigger Springs
2) CMC Drop in trigger (~150, got it with the slide fire stock)
3) Geiselle SD3G (~250) with JP Yellow Trigger Springs
4) Geiselle Super-V Trigger, with JP Yellow Trigger Springs
FWIW, I read an article comparing drop in triggers to other triggers; In general, drop in triggers have less creep, less over travel, crisper break, better reset than non-drop in triggers. I don't personally find a huge difference between the ALG ACT and SD3G or CMC drop in, except the SD3G has a very short reset for quick follow up shots.
Never tried a JARD, and I doubt that any of my triggers are in the 2.5lb range. 3-4.5 is sufficient for me, so long as the break is clean and creep is minimized.
Here's a link to the drop in trigger article. More information that I could absorb, complete with charts and graphics:
The AR-15 Drop-In Trigger Roundup - The Truth About Guns
I hope that helps!
Last edited:
Sithlord, sorry I keep confusing you and Mark 15/22! Thanks for the above info which is extra-ordinarily helpful. From this point, I'm going to go slow, probably starting with just the JP Yellow springs on the stock Perf. Center Trigger. I'll post again when I've settled on something reliable that I like.
I !really! like the JARD trigger - I just can't find a way to make it reliable on my 15-22. Also, the people at JARD were great to work with -- no phone tree and usually a direct connection to someone very knowledgeable. I'm keeping their trigger and will try it on a .223/556 AR build.
I !really! like the JARD trigger - I just can't find a way to make it reliable on my 15-22. Also, the people at JARD were great to work with -- no phone tree and usually a direct connection to someone very knowledgeable. I'm keeping their trigger and will try it on a .223/556 AR build.
trebor127
Member
Just buy the CMC 3.5lbs drop in trigger and all your problems
with light strikes will be solved
Keith
with light strikes will be solved
Keith
Happy to report that I've settled on this nice, reliable setup, for now:
- Stock Performance Center, two stage hammer and trigger.
- PJ yellow springs (hammer and trigger).
- Light firing pin spring (Hilman spring described above).
- Very small amount of Armite L-P 250 sear grease (purchased at JP website).
- KNS Precision M&P15-22 trigger and hammer pins.
Result is nice two-stage action, breaking around 3.25 lbs. No light strikes or failures to reset.
- Stock Performance Center, two stage hammer and trigger.
- PJ yellow springs (hammer and trigger).
- Light firing pin spring (Hilman spring described above).
- Very small amount of Armite L-P 250 sear grease (purchased at JP website).
- KNS Precision M&P15-22 trigger and hammer pins.
Result is nice two-stage action, breaking around 3.25 lbs. No light strikes or failures to reset.
I run the Velocity Trigger trigger with upgraded hammer spring.
Velocity AR Trigger - Compatiable with popular rifle calibers (.22, .223/5.58mm, .30 cal)
Velocity AR Trigger - Compatiable with popular rifle calibers (.22, .223/5.58mm, .30 cal)
Last edited:
