Two hand grip for Model 41

[Wise_A]

I do dry-fire and do holding drills, typically four or five days a week, and typically three or four half hour sessions a day. These drills noticeably improve my ability to hold the gun more steady. But if I miss a few days, that ability goes away somewhat. It used to be better at dry-firing than when I had live ammo, but that's getting minimal as well - what I see in my bedroom is what I see at the range. I think that is the single biggest problem I now have, as the targets I'll post below represent what my red dot was doing as I was shooting. Very few "flyers".

You're at the hard part--even your "bad" shots are, by objective standards, quite good. I took the liberty of doing a little group-analysis on your picture, attached below. The questions I think you should ask yourself are:

--For shots that landed outside the red circles, what was different? Was my grip looser? Was my finger in a different place? Was my timing different?

--For groups without a red circle, what was different from the other groups? What changed about my grip? Did I stand a different way, tense my hand and arm less or more, etc. Even things like getting tired matters.

Sometimes you'll successfully answer one of those questions. As the groups shrink and the scores climb, the answer gets "smaller" and harder to find. When you do, write it down and incorporate it into your shot process.

I don't have a spotting scope, but I do have a pair of binoculars I bought for shooting. I definitely am not able to see the holes most of the time without using them, and I refuse to use the "shoot-and-see" targets, as I'm afraid that I will "correct" my aim after every shot. I take 5 shots, then look at the group. A spotting scope would be a big help, now that I think about it again. I need to find one with a "tripod" of some type. Any suggestions?

Don't go crazy on one. If you can see each shot with the binoculars, just use them, especially if you can do so without breaking your dominant-hand grip.

I've used inexpensive Barska, Burris, and Bushnell scopes myself. There's a noticeable difference with expensive glass, but hey--if you can see the holes, what's the difference? If you decide to pick one up anyway--I would really just continue with the binoculars--an adjustable tripod with telescoping legs is handy. Try and find someone that's got one and give it a whirl.

The big thing is to be "scoping" each shot, however you do it. A lot of the things you figure out are counterintuitive--the idea of shooting faster and holding for less time seems nonsensical, for instance, because we associate precision and accuracy with being careful, and being careful with working slowly.

Question - when you describe a "shot process", carefully doing everything the same way, and writing down every step, is that before each shot, or each time you insert a new magazine? With my 45, I used to load one round per magazine (maybe two every so often) so I was constantly doing what I think you are suggesting, but with the 22 I'm loading 5 rounds. Yes, I'm sure what you wrote will help, as I'm not "certain" that I am holding the gun exactly the same way. Close, but that would explain why some shots (groups) are more likely to be to the left or right, which is clear in my target below.

My shot process begins with how I pick the gun up to start shooting--grip the muzzle with my left hand, place the gun in my right hand, etc etc. But yes--variation in grip and the exact orientation of your finger on the trigger is why groups shift around the target.

Whatever you do, don't try "chasing" them with sight or point-of-aim adjustments.

You can load multiple cartridges and still have a consistent shot process. It's a matter of personal preference. I always load 5 per magazine, but in slow fire (10 shots/10 minutes), I reload the magazine after the fourth shot, so the recoil is as consistent as possible.

But that's just me. Whether or not is matters, doesn't actually matter. If you think it matters--then it does. If you decide that you shoot better if you have a bagel, an egg, and a banana for breakfast, then the confidence alone will allow you to shoot better.

With the stock Model 41 grips, I'm never sure what to do with my thumbs. I can shoot with either thumb next to the gun, with the other thumb outside. I have ordered a pair of Herrett grips, which are flat, to fix this. I will be talking to Dee on Tuesday morning to decide which of their Model 41 grips would be best - any advice?

Dunno. It's tough to judge without seeing your hands. The H-41s keep a lot of the contour of the stock grips, and reduce the thumbrest to a slight bulge. The Trainer is much more flat (costs quite a bit more, too).

I usually "stack" my dominant thumb over my off-hand thumb when I use two hands. But mostly, I don't think about it.

Regarding "bad shots", I've been trying to stop, and start the process all over when something feels wrong, but every so often (nerves?) I fire when I wasn't ready. This happens much less often now.

It's harder than it sounds. If you're practicing dry-firing at home--abort dry-fire shots. If you dry-fire every time you raise, then when you get to the firing line, you'll do the same thing.

 

[mikemyers]

........I took the liberty of doing a little group-analysis on your picture, attached below..........If you decide that you shoot better if you have a bagel, an egg, and a banana for breakfast, then the confidence alone will allow you to shoot better.

I need to read this a few more times, and think about it. Thanks. I think the system isn't showing the photo you edited? Am I missing something?

Oh, regarding the confidence, "Twinings Pure Camomile Tea" does wonders at calming my nerves, and making me feel much more relaxed. I never believed it would make such a difference!!

 

[mikemyers]

I have always had a problem when dry-firing that whatever gun it was started feeling so heavy, my hands eventually started to quiver. This was the cure - wear a pair of these for half the dry firing session, and for the second half the gun feels almost like it's plastic.

I've been noticing that with the "reduced weight" the sights get more and more stable, and the little red dot has gone from seeming drunk, to just wandering around a little, to almost staying put. Almost.

 

[mikemyers]

........--For shots that landed outside the red circles, what was different? Was my grip looser? Was my finger in a different place? Was my timing different?

--For groups without a red circle, what was different from the other groups? What changed about my grip? Did I stand a different way, tense my hand and arm less or more, etc. Even things like getting tired matters.......

You gave me lots of useful ideas, some of which I was able to improve, and one of which seems to have backfired.

You were right. My group was never "the same" - close though. So, I took your advice of feeding the gun with my left hand into my right hand, and making sure my trigger finger was in the exact same spot on the trigger guard. Doing that seems to have cured that problem.

The spread matched the path my red dot was making as it danced over the target. With more dry firing, sometimes using weights, the dot is now more stable, especially by the third or fourth time I dry or live fire. It is never good the first time I pick the gun up. I know this is improving. My targets for today often looked like a 3" group, with a flyer every so often, and each time I know it's because my hand involuntarily jerked.


I suspect my weakest link is that I am disturbing the shot when I fire. If I fire slowly and smoothly, my nerves seem to disrupt the red dot just before or after I fire. If it's before, I lower the gun and start over. When I fire reasonably quickly, sometimes it works well, and others (I think due to my nerves) my hand "jerks" just as I'm firing. If I concentrate on relaxing, this gets better. You mentioned "timing" as something to keep the same, and not vary. I'm not really sure any more about what my timing should be. I used to concentrate on the trigger, and let my sub-conscience take care of the sights, but now I'm doing the opposite.

I think I need to work on my trigger finger during dry-firing. According to most people, the Model 41 should not be dry-fired, so I use the safety to prevent the gun from firing, as I smoothly apply pressure to the trigger. I no longer think that is useful, as when the gun is fired, the pressure on the trigger finger suddenly seems to be decreased, and if my finger isn't moving straight back, that will disturb the aim. I learned that on my Baer. I guess I need to do the same on this gun, to learn how to do it properly.

The solutions seem to dry-fire it empty as the people at Clark Custom Guns said is perfectly safe as long as the firing pin is not extending too far, or to remove the firing pin for dry-firing, or to buy snap-caps (can't find any), or to use the "dummy rounds" I already bought (which get indented every time the gun dry-fires), or to get the wall anchors so many people talk about as a substitute for snap caps. Or, I could put the Model 41 aside for a while, and start working with my Model 52, which I can dry-fire endlessly with no problems (it has an adjustment that allows dry-firing).


My practice might be stopping for a while - Hurricane Irma seems to be pointed right at me. I might get to the range tomorrow, but by Saturday I'll have other things on my mind.

Thanks again for all the wonderful help!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Wise_A]

I need to read this a few more times, and think about it. Thanks. I think the system isn't showing the photo you edited? Am I missing something?

It didn't. I usually Imgur these sorts of things, but it was originally your image, so I didn't want to throw it into that festering cesspool.

I have always had a problem when dry-firing that whatever gun it was started feeling so heavy, my hands eventually started to quiver. This was the cure - wear a pair of these for half the dry firing session, and for the second half the gun feels almost like it's plastic.

The 41 is a heavy bugger, even by bullseye pistol standards--and it's incredibly muzzle-heavy. A lot of guys like to take the 7" "field" barrel and have it cut down to 5.5", just to shave some weight off. Some will even use both rings of a Matchdot on the front tube, hanging the optic off the rear of the gun.

I use deep breathing to fight fatigue during slow fire in even a 300 (30-round match). A few good deep ones between each shot goes a long way.

If I concentrate on relaxing, this gets better. You mentioned "timing" as something to keep the same, and not vary. I'm not really sure any more about what my timing should be. I used to concentrate on the trigger, and let my sub-conscience take care of the sights, but now I'm doing the opposite.

Think of it this way: you can't force the timing in actual shooting. You might run 2-second drills as a matter of practice, but it's not the sort of thing that you can just make happen.

What you can do is abort a shot if it takes too long.

Just focus on making an unbroken trigger pull--no stopping, no changes in how quickly the pressure on the trigger builds. For now, forget about the speed, all that matters is not stopping. Either you have a nice, never-slowing, never-stopping trigger pull to completion, or you feel the pressure stop building and you abort the shot. This is the hard part, because the whole time you're doing this, you're distracted by the sight's movement on the target.

Lots of guys (myself included) use a mantra to help. Once you feel that uninterrupted trigger pull a few times, reflect on how it made you feel, or any thoughts that come to mind. Some people associate it with an intangible: confidence, aggression, excellence, or perfection, for instance. They'll build a something like a corporate motivational around that. Other folks relate it to a picture: swinging a baseball bat, hammer, or golf club. The idea is that when you go to shoot, you repeat the mantra or picture the image, and return to that same mindset.

In terms of conscious/unconscious control, I leave both sights and trigger to unconscious control. Consciously, I'm just managing the process--monitoring for aborts, calling shots, and playing the game.

I think I need to work on my trigger finger during dry-firing. According to most people, the Model 41 should not be dry-fired, so I use the safety to prevent the gun from firing, as I smoothly apply pressure to the trigger. I no longer think that is useful, as when the gun is fired, the pressure on the trigger finger suddenly seems to be decreased, and if my finger isn't moving straight back, that will disturb the aim. I learned that on my Baer. I guess I need to do the same on this gun, to learn how to do it properly.

One of the reasons why I went with a Nelson Custom 1911-22 conversion. They're dry-fire safe--the pin doesn't even get close to the chamber before the return spring fully compresses. Free plug for Larry:

Nelson Custom Guns - Nelson Custom GunsNelson Custom Guns | Call Today 480-699-8040

Also, you have a 52, you lucky dog.

My practice might be stopping for a while - Hurricane Irma seems to be pointed right at me. I might get to the range tomorrow, but by Saturday I'll have other things on my mind.

Good luck.

 

[mikemyers]

....

......

The 41 is a heavy bugger, even by bullseye pistol standards--and it's incredibly muzzle-heavy. A lot of guys like to take the 7" "field" barrel and have it cut down to 5.5", just to shave some weight off. Some will even use both rings of a Matchdot on the front tube, hanging the optic off the rear of the gun.

......

Just focus on making an unbroken trigger pull--no stopping, no changes in how quickly the pressure on the trigger builds. For now, forget about the speed, all that matters is not stopping. Either you have a nice, never-slowing, never-stopping trigger pull to completion, or you feel the pressure stop building and you abort the shot. This is the hard part, because the whole time you're doing this, you're distracted by the sight's movement on the target.

......

In terms of conscious/unconscious control, I leave both sights and trigger to unconscious control. Consciously, I'm just managing the process--monitoring for aborts, calling shots, and playing the game.

.....

Also, you have a 52, you lucky dog.

Just a few short answers before I go back to Irma preparations. Thanks again, both for answering questions, and mentioning things I never would have thought of!!!

When I click on the link to the image, I get an error message.

I've got a Clark barrel, so it isn't so long, but your suggestion was brilliant!!!!!!!! See photo below. It makes a HUGE difference in how the gun feels! I'm sure that weight was contributing to my fingers "jerking". After making this change, it feels like the gun lost half its weight.

Trigger pull. I'll just take a box of ammo to the range, and try to learn how to do what you suggested. I might use a rest, so any errors will have to be caused by my trigger pull, not the sights. If I get there today (not too likely) I'll try this.

Conscious/un-conscious thoughts - I'll try that too. Just sort of oversee what my body is doing. I thought of just loading one round per magazine, and making every part of the sequence perfect. Some of those ideas have fitted into this concept - when I pick up my gun and feed it into my shooting hand, if I start with my trigger finger hitting the same spot on the trigger guard every time, my hand just wraps itself around the stock exactly the same every time. It leaves just enough room on the left side for the palm of my left hand to clamp down on that stock. Doing everything identically was another idea you brought up earlier, "Shot Process".

M-52... after so many people told me how fantastic it is, and having tried one that my brother bought, I started looking. I posted about this on the Bullseye Forum, and one of the members offered to sell me his. It was practically new. Had all the accessories, tools, and the box. I'm very happy with it. I've been learning how to load ammo for it, using bullets from Terry at Magnus Bullets.

 

[mikemyers]

I may or may not be posting here for a while, something called Irma about to make a very unwelcome visit, going over my head, then right over Hollywood Rifle and Pistol Club, while making sure to damage as much as possible in the state of Florida, and then moving on.

Just to elaborate a wee bit on the previous post:

First, relocating the Matchdot II as you suggested others were doing made a huge difference - the red dot is much more likely to stay put where I want it.

Oh, and I was totally wrong about the dry-firing. While I got consistent at doing it the same way, safety on and just increasing pressure, , I was consistently wrong. I loaded my "dummy rounds" to test this, and ever time I fired the gun moved downwards. After half an hour or so, I ended up with my trigger finger a little higher, and that made it a lot better. Not perfect yet, but better. If my finger is the slightest bit too high/low or even in/out, the gun moves. Well, I know what I need to work on!

 

[mikemyers]

........Just focus on making an unbroken trigger pull--no stopping, no changes in how quickly the pressure on the trigger builds. For now, forget about the speed, all that matters is not stopping. Either you have a nice, never-slowing, never-stopping trigger pull to completion, or you feel the pressure stop building and you abort the shot. This is the hard part, because the whole time you're doing this, you're distracted by the sight's movement on the target.

Lots of guys (myself included) use a mantra to help. Once you feel that uninterrupted trigger pull a few times, reflect on how it made you feel, or any thoughts that come to mind. Some people associate it with an intangible: confidence, aggression, excellence, or perfection, for instance. They'll build a something like a corporate motivational around that. Other folks relate it to a picture: swinging a baseball bat, hammer, or golf club. The idea is that when you go to shoot, you repeat the mantra or picture the image, and return to that same mindset.

In terms of conscious/unconscious control, I leave both sights and trigger to unconscious control. Consciously, I'm just managing the process--monitoring for aborts, calling shots, and playing the game.......

Hurricane Irma came and went. I took off on my 4-month trip to India (volunteer work at Aravind Eye Hospital) and returned in February. I bought a Salyer Wad Gun (45), and mostly have been using that and the Model 52, and am at the point where I'll use my own reloaded ammo from now on. Before I ask about the Model 41, shooting with the Salyer (using Dave Salyer's Area Aiming concept) got my scores consistently into the mid 90's. Then, with the M-52, as I got used to it, or vice versa, scores got into the high 90's. I'm about to make another short trip to India, so yesterday I got out the Model 41 again.

The image below is 25 shots at 25 yards, sort of "area aiming", but the area is now very tiny. Your advice, and similar advice from Mike Campbell, was VERY helpful!!!!!!!!!

I took your suggestion, and mounted the red dot sight so the weight is towards the rear. I followed everything you and Mike suggested, and have done a ton of dry firing. I still have the "problem" that my thumbs don't know where to go, but I found a way to grip the gun "mostly" like my 1911 and M-52. I think I may have too much trigger over-travel - will adjust that tomorrow. I guess I can't complain, as most of my hits are 10, with a small number being a 9. The "flyers" are mostly gone. But I want to do better....

I keep thinking that if I find a better way to hold the gun a little more steady, the "wobble zone" will stay in the 10 ring, and not move out to the 9 ring..... but tomorrow I intend to follow your suggestion quoted up above. All I need to do then, is let my subconscious concentrate on alignment and trigger, while I go through the countdown.

.....and I also drew a new target, with (only) the 10-ring and X-ring filled in with black. I'll use the NRA official targets later, but I thought this might help me for now.

 

[Bullseye 2620]

One-handed at 25 yards with iron sights works for me:

Rapid Fire at 25 Yards, Shot at USMC Base Quantico, Indoor 2700, c. 1990.


Stance. Grip. Breath Control. Sight Alignment. Trigger Control. Front Sight, Front Sight, Front Sight, and Follow-Through.

 

[mikemyers]

Beautiful!!!!

I may never get to do that....
....but I never thought I'd get this far.

One handed too! Awesome!!

 

[mikemyers]

......Just focus on making an unbroken trigger pull--no stopping, no changes in how quickly the pressure on the trigger builds.......or.....abort the shot.

Here's the result of going to the range this morning, following your advice.

 

[mikemyers]

.........Stance. Grip. Breath Control. Sight Alignment. Trigger Control. Front Sight, Front Sight, Front Sight, and Follow-Through......

Do you shoot targets like that on a routine basis, or is it only once in a while? The group is so small, it's very impressive!