Uncorrectable Pistol?

[The Viking]

First let me say I have two S&W M&P in 9mm with 1,000 rounds through one and 2,000 rounds through the other without a problem. They are my favorite pistols.
So I purchased a 40 cal M&P and this particularly pistol has been nothing but a problem. First, it gave me a dead trigger and went back to the factory for correction. When it came back it starting giving me light strikes on the primer. Back to the factory it went. It came back and I took it out to the range yesterday. Again it started giving me light strikes. 6 per hundred rounds. Like Clint Smith says, one of the loudest things you can hear is a click when you should hear a boom.
It is going back to the factory again. Is this pistol uncorrectable or what?
The gunsmith asked about hard primers ( the ammo was factory mag tech); however my 9mm S&W eats the ammo without a problem. So I do not subscribe to the hard primer theory.

 

[DustyDawg48]

.40 S&W is the devil's caliber and should be shunned at all costs! lol

Hopefully Smith will remedy the issue; I know it sucks to send something in multiple times especially if you consider that in the back of your mind a big 'what if' will always be floating around...you wondering if the problem is going to come back in a time when you might need the gun. It is funny but the one M&P I actually had feeding problems with (and one I was almost starting to regret trading for) is now my favorite and most reliable pistol once I got the kinks worked out. It turned out that there was a huge bur on the side of the extractor that wouldn't let the brass slide fully under so it would constantly jam. 400 grit sandpaper and about 10 minutes and it runs like a champ all day long.

Hopefully it is something that this latest trip to Smith will fix and you'll find yourself loving this gun but I'd only give it so many chances before I'd start asking Smith to start replacing giant parts of the gun or the entire thing all together.

 

[GKC]

Unless you can identify any shooter-induced error, then to me the third trip back should result in a new gun, IMO.

 

[Lost Lake]

Does S&W send you a new mag every time? That would take some of the edge off the pain.

I sent a Remington rifle in once that wouldn't shoot MOA. The factory crowned the barrel, glass bedded the action and lapped the bolt. That thing would shoot 1" groups at 100 yards all day long. Does S&W upgrade anything when a gun comes back?

 

[Fastbolt]

Have you tried any ammunition in the M&P 40 other than Magtech?

Last I heard, when S&W does test-fire after production or repair, they use one or another brand of ammunition made by one of the major American ammunition companies. (It varies, I'm told.)

The only way to rule out the "ammunition factor" is to try different ammunition. Sometimes an ammunition problem is mistakenly taken to be a gun problem.

If it were me, I'd run some ammunition through the gun that's made by Remington, Winchester, Federal or Speer ... and if the gun runs normally when it's being used with that ammunition, your "problem" may not be the gun.

 

[The Viking]

Have you tried any ammunition in the M&P 40 other than Magtech?

Last I heard, when S&W does test-fire after production or repair, they use one or another brand of ammunition made by one of the major American ammunition companies. (It varies, I'm told.)

The only way to rule out the "ammunition factor" is to try different ammunition. Sometimes an ammunition problem is mistakenly taken to be a gun problem.

If it were me, I'd run some ammunition through the gun that's made by Remington, Winchester, Federal or Speer ... and if the gun runs normally when it's being used with that ammunition, your "problem" may not be the gun.

A factory gun should shoot factory ammo. I just don't buy it is an ammo problem. Too easy an excuse. It was pretty obvious the pistol was not tested when sent back the second time. There was a note saying striker assembly replaced meets factory specifications. No one else is having problems with Mag tech ammo that I know of.

 

[The Viking]

Does S&W send you a new mag every time? That would take some of the edge off the pain.

I sent a Remington rifle in once that wouldn't shoot MOA. The factory crowned the barrel, glass bedded the action and lapped the bolt. That thing would shoot 1" groups at 100 yards all day long. Does S&W upgrade anything when a gun comes back?

Nope no new mag.

 

[growr]

I would certainly heed the advice of Fastbolt who is an extremely knowlegeable and highly respected armorer on this forum. Check it with other ammo to eliminate other possibilities.

Randy

 

[Fastbolt]

A factory gun should shoot factory ammo. I just don't buy it is an ammo problem. Too easy an excuse. It was pretty obvious the pistol was not tested when sent back the second time. There was a note saying striker assembly replaced meets factory specifications. No one else is having problems with Mag tech ammo that I know of.

Well, after having seen all manner of "factory ammo" used over the years, I've long since discarded the notion that all ammunition is made equally. Sorry.

That's like saying that all "factory made" firearms are the same when it comes to quality and materials used. Not really.

I can think of a fair number of instances where folks either went away to training classes, were doing quals or were just doing some range work, and they experienced problems when using factory ammunition that wasn't made by one of the Major American companies.

Also, as an armorer I've seen that it's certainly not uncommon for the major gun companies (even those based in Europe) to include the recommendation in their "problem diagnostics" sections of armorer manuals, that if a certain brand of ammunition doesn't provide for normal function & operation in their firearm, to try another brand.

Once a semiautomatic pistol leaves the manufacturer, there are generally 2 major influences that can adversely affect the normal operation & functioning of the gun, those being the shooter and the ammunition.

Sure, the owner/user maintenance practices and the actual environmental conditions in which the firearm will used can also have an influence on how the gun operates and functions, but the shooter & ammo are the primary factors ... and the gun companies have no control over either of those.

S&W states in their 3rd gen armorer manual that their guns are test-fired using one of the 3 major U.S. brands of ammunition. They don't have such a statement in either of the 2 versions of the M&P pistol armorer manuals I have, although I remember being told they were using a lot of U.S. factory ammunition for the testing of the M&P, trying to use a sampling of what might be used by their LE/Gov customers. It's impractical for them to try and test-fire samplings of each and every brand, though.

(We were also told that each new M&P, regardless of whether destined for commercial or LE/Gov sales, is test-fired at the factory using 5 rounds loaded into each of 3 test magazines, for a total of 15 rounds of factory ammunition ... which is more than what was previously done for QC test-fire in their other model lines.)

I can think of some armorer classes I've attended for Glock, and how some armorers have reported they had experienced problems when using one or another brand of ammo (or just a different bullet weight). Glock's answer? Try different ammo.

Same thing in some other armorer classes.

Luck to you, though. You own stock in that one ammo company?

 

[The Viking]

Well, after having seen all manner of "factory ammo" used over the years, I've long since discarded the notion that all ammunition is made equally. Sorry.

That's like saying that all "factory made" firearms are the same when it comes to quality and materials used. Not really.

I can think of a fair number of instances where folks either went away to training classes, were doing quals or were just doing some range work, and they experienced problems when using factory ammunition that wasn't made by one of the Major American companies.

Also, as an armorer I've seen that it's certainly not uncommon for the major gun companies (even those based in Europe) to include the recommendation in their "problem diagnostics" sections of armorer manuals, that if a certain brand of ammunition doesn't provide for normal function & operation in their firearm, to try another brand.

Once a semiautomatic pistol leaves the manufacturer, there are generally 2 major influences that can adversely affect the normal operation & functioning of the gun, those being the shooter and the ammunition.

Sure, the owner/user maintenance practices and the actual environmental conditions in which the firearm will used can also have an influence on how the gun operates and functions, but the shooter & ammo are the primary factors ... and the gun companies have no control over either of those.

S&W states in their 3rd gen armorer manual that their guns are test-fired using one of the 3 major U.S. brands of ammunition. They don't have such a statement in either of the 2 versions of the M&P pistol armorer manuals I have, although I remember being told they were using a lot of U.S. factory ammunition for the testing of the M&P, trying to use a sampling of what might be used by their LE/Gov customers. It's impractical for them to try and test-fire samplings of each and every brand, though.

(We were also told that each new M&P, regardless of whether destined for commercial or LE/Gov sales, is test-fired at the factory using 5 rounds loaded into each of 3 test magazines, for a total of 15 rounds of factory ammunition ... which is more than what was previously done for QC test-fire in their other model lines.)

I can think of some armorer classes I've attended for Glock, and how some armorers have reported they had experienced problems when using one or another brand of ammo (or just a different bullet weight). Glock's answer? Try different ammo.

Same thing in some other armorer classes.

Luck to you, though. You own stock in that one ammo company?

I intend going to the range today to see if a friend's 40 caliber S&W M&P has any problems firing the mag tech ammo. If it does not, then I know it is the pistol and not a universal problem.
Meanwhile, my Glocks have eaten everything I have fed them as have my 1911's. If Smith is going to label it a Military and Police pistol then it should live up to its name.
For right now I will continue carrying my 1911.

 

[Pontiaker]

This is a known problem that they cant seem to fix the first time. The exact same thing is happening on my buddies 9mm, his has been back to S&W three times. He has had it back a short time now after the third repair and shot a steel match with it two weeks ago, so far so good.

 

[The Viking]

This is a known problem that they cant seem to fix the first time. The exact same thing is happening on my buddies 9mm, his has been back to S&W three times. He has had it back a short time now after the third repair and shot a steel match with it two weeks ago, so far so good.

My two S&W M&P 9mm have eaten everything I have fed them. As I said in my first post, I have 1,000 rounds through one and 2,000 through the other. I suspect this problem has something to do with the particular pistol.

 

[The Viking]

Well, after having seen all manner of "factory ammo" used over the years, I've long since discarded the notion that all ammunition is made equally. Sorry.

That's like saying that all "factory made" firearms are the same when it comes to quality and materials used. Not really.

I can think of a fair number of instances where folks either went away to training classes, were doing quals or were just doing some range work, and they experienced problems when using factory ammunition that wasn't made by one of the Major American companies.

Also, as an armorer I've seen that it's certainly not uncommon for the major gun companies (even those based in Europe) to include the recommendation in their "problem diagnostics" sections of armorer manuals, that if a certain brand of ammunition doesn't provide for normal function & operation in their firearm, to try another brand.

Once a semiautomatic pistol leaves the manufacturer, there are generally 2 major influences that can adversely affect the normal operation & functioning of the gun, those being the shooter and the ammunition.

Sure, the owner/user maintenance practices and the actual environmental conditions in which the firearm will used can also have an influence on how the gun operates and functions, but the shooter & ammo are the primary factors ... and the gun companies have no control over either of those.

S&W states in their 3rd gen armorer manual that their guns are test-fired using one of the 3 major U.S. brands of ammunition. They don't have such a statement in either of the 2 versions of the M&P pistol armorer manuals I have, although I remember being told they were using a lot of U.S. factory ammunition for the testing of the M&P, trying to use a sampling of what might be used by their LE/Gov customers. It's impractical for them to try and test-fire samplings of each and every brand, though.

(We were also told that each new M&P, regardless of whether destined for commercial or LE/Gov sales, is test-fired at the factory using 5 rounds loaded into each of 3 test magazines, for a total of 15 rounds of factory ammunition ... which is more than what was previously done for QC test-fire in their other model lines.)

I can think of some armorer classes I've attended for Glock, and how some armorers have reported they had experienced problems when using one or another brand of ammo (or just a different bullet weight). Glock's answer? Try different ammo.

Same thing in some other armorer classes.

Luck to you, though. You own stock in that one ammo company?

OK. Took my friend's S&W M&P to the range today and ran 100 rounds of Mag Tech ammo through it without any problem whatsoever. No light strikes. That tells me is not the ammo. It is a peculiarity of my particular pistol.
You own stock in S&W?

 

[Fastbolt]

OK. Took my friend's S&W M&P to the range today and ran 100 rounds of Mag Tech ammo through it without any problem whatsoever. No light strikes. That tells me is not the ammo. It is a peculiarity of my particular pistol.
You own stock in S&W?

Good for you. Same production lot of ammo? (Check the lot numbers on the boxes?) May or may not be relevant if the problem was with a particular production lot.

Nope. Not a SWHC share holder.

Not a share holder in a Brazilian or any U.S. ammo companies, either.

Once S&W has examined your M&P 40 ... probably the slide's breech face opening, safety block, trigger bar (safety block extension) & the striker assembly, and then test-fires it with one or another brand of U.S. made ammunition ... let us know how it works with your ammunition.

BTW, I don't remember if you mentioned whether or not there was any indication of excessive solvent or lubricant inside your M&P 40 when the light-strike condition began occurring. Any shiny liquid visible up inside what you can see of the back of the striker channel? It's not impossible for some slightly harder primers to be more susceptible to lighter striker impacts caused by hydraulic pressure conditions when unwanted solvents/lubes are introduced to the striker channel. (They'll naturally check for such excessive contamination at the factory for you.)

You might bear in mind that if all ammunition was always created equally, the major gun companies who provide armorer classes to their LE/Gov customers wouldn't commonly list a recommendation to try different ammunition in a gun to try and resolve any "problems" which occur, and which can't be reasonably attributed to the gun's mechanical condition when inspected by the factory or an armorer.

 

[The Viking]

Good for you. Same production lot of ammo? (Check the lot numbers on the boxes?) May or may not be relevant if the problem was with a particular production lot.

Nope. Not a SWHC share holder.

Not a share holder in a Brazilian or any U.S. ammo companies, either.

Once S&W has examined your M&P 40 ... probably the slide's breech face opening, safety block, trigger bar (safety block extension) & the striker assembly, and then test-fires it with one or another brand of U.S. made ammunition ... let us know how it works with your ammunition.

BTW, I don't remember if you mentioned whether or not there was any indication of excessive solvent or lubricant inside your M&P 40 when the light-strike condition began occurring. Any shiny liquid visible up inside what you can see of the back of the striker channel? It's not impossible for some slightly harder primers to be more susceptible to lighter striker impacts caused by hydraulic pressure conditions when unwanted solvents/lubes are introduced to the striker channel. (They'll naturally check for such excessive contamination at the factory for you.)

You might bear in mind that if all ammunition was always created equally, the major gun companies who provide armorer classes to their LE/Gov customers wouldn't commonly list a recommendation to try different ammunition in a gun to try and resolve any "problems" which occur, and which can't be reasonably attributed to the gun's mechanical condition when inspected by the factory or an armorer.

You might bear in mind that this is the second time, months apart, at this range with this same brand of ammo that the pistol has given light strikes. So I rather doubt in was a " bad batch" of ammo. This ammo is sold by that range so it has a rather rapid turnover.
No indication of excessive lubricant or solvent in the pistol either. Hard of me not to believe it is not the pistol. This particular pistol has been trouble since it was bought. Dead trigger, light strikes. Examining the indents in the primer you can see some are fairly deep and the light ones are very light.
Talking to the fellow ( who is knowledgeable about this pistol and has even attended the armorer's school for it ) at the large store where it was purchased, he simply thinks I have managed to select a lemon. He said he would lay a sizable bet that, if I bought another, I would not have any problems. Not before I have this one checked out thoroughly. I have pretty much lost faith in it as a carry pistol.
Meanwhile, my 9mm's M&P's give me no trouble and eat this ammo regularly.
I will wait and see what Smith says about the pistol. If they say nothing is wrong, it still goes on the block as untrustworthy.

 

[Fastbolt]

You could very well be right about the instances of light strikes that occurred some time apart both being related to ammo/hard primers.

If you experienced some instances of the early-style sear plunger & spring not keeping the sear up to engage the striker's foot (excessive sear flutter), did they resolve that by installing one of the newer sear assemblies with the larger plunger/plunger spring? That would be my guess.

Did they already replace your striker assembly because of your earlier light-strike complaint? If not, they should, regardless of whichever version is in your M&P 40.

BTW, if the fellow where you bought the gun is actually a S&W trained armorer, why didn't he just replace the striker assembly in your M&P 40 to see if that was the problem? Easy enough to try and check. (S&W will provide necessary repair parts to factory trained armorers for free as warranty replacements. If he went to a "non-factory" armorer class, though, he'd not have the same access to free warranty replacement parts.)

If the factory has already previously replaced the striker assembly, and hasn't yet replaced the slide, the easiest thing to do would be to just give you a new slide & barrel and call it a day. (Maybe put night sights on the slide for the inconvenience you've experienced. )

You call and speak to anyone in Pistol Repair about it?

 

[perfectcircle1]

Trade it.....

 

[SMMAssociates]

Herbert:

Couple of other things to look at.... The drop safety could be mucked up - sticky, congealed grease, manufacturing crud, etc. That can retard the striker, but not necessarily consistently.

The other thing that pops into my head is that the chamber is a hair too long, and normally the gun only fires because the extractor is holding the case head to the bolt face. Interfere with that (a little dirt or tramp metal someplace) and reliability goes away.

The pure "dead trigger" issue is really something else, I think, in this case. Easily fixed with the updated sear block. You can search on that here and get an earful.

I had a funny one with a Llama in .40S&W some years back. A club member turned up with it. Good price, too, but the fool thing just didn't always fire. Checked what we could and found nothing. (This particular gun is a copy, but not a clone, of the Colt "Officer's" sized guns. Lots of parts do the same job, but don't quite work the same way. Not a lot of interchangeability, either.)

After much cursing, we noted that it had a Swartz safety (Kimber uses them), and I pulled the firing pin block out of the slide. (Remove the rear sight to do it!) Turned out that the mechanism was out of time, and the hammer would hit the firing pin at just the wrong time, whacking the pin into the edge of the block instead of moving the block out of the way. Eventually a burr was raised on the bottom of the block (it's a "bar" across the top of the firing pin), which retarded the firing pin. Easy enough to fix, but the joke was that the gun was happy as a clam with another club member's reloads, but didn't like factory loads at all. The reloads had softer primers.... Which, of course, resulted in an essentially non-functional gun for "self defense" purposes that shot well on the range....

(We discovered the problem when he tried to shoot some other reloads.)

FastBolt knows about as much about the insides of these things as the S&W gang do, if not more. If he tells you it's the modem, it's the modem.... (OK, the striker .)

BTW, the drop safety requires that the little flag on the rear of the trigger bar raise the plunger far enough. If possible, compare the height of the ones you have. The bar could be bent enough to keep that flag from going high enough while still letting the sear work. Just IMHO, that trigger bar is a kludge. Simple, throwaway, part, but lots of little zingers hiding there.

(FB: I finally got one of my Para LDA's actions about half apart, and back together successfully. I popped out a pin while trying to stake it - sear pin likes to wander a little - and all kinds of little bits moved out without permission. Four hours.... My "schematic" showed the grip safety lever going into the frame the wrong way. Took a while, and a look at the insides of another LDA.... Someday, I'll try the rest of it. Meantime, I've had all three of my M&P's down to bare plastic in the frame. Still haven't bothered to try to remove an extractor, though.)

Regards,

 

[thndrchiken]

OK. Took my friend's S&W M&P to the range today and ran 100 rounds of Mag Tech ammo through it without any problem whatsoever. No light strikes. That tells me is not the ammo. It is a peculiarity of my particular pistol.
You own stock in S&W?

Your not getting the point, every gun is an animal unto itself, try different ammo in YOUR gun.

 

[The Viking]

You could very well be right about the instances of light strikes that occurred some time apart both being related to ammo/hard primers.

If you experienced some instances of the early-style sear plunger & spring not keeping the sear up to engage the striker's foot (excessive sear flutter), did they resolve that by installing one of the newer sear assemblies with the larger plunger/plunger spring? That would be my guess.

Did they already replace your striker assembly because of your earlier light-strike complaint? If not, they should, regardless of whichever version is in your M&P 40.

BTW, if the fellow where you bought the gun is actually a S&W trained armorer, why didn't he just replace the striker assembly in your M&P 40 to see if that was the problem? Easy enough to try and check. (S&W will provide necessary repair parts to factory trained armorers for free as warranty replacements. If he went to a "non-factory" armorer class, though, he'd not have the same access to free warranty replacement parts.)

If the factory has already previously replaced the striker assembly, and hasn't yet replaced the slide, the easiest thing to do would be to just give you a new slide & barrel and call it a day. (Maybe put night sights on the slide for the inconvenience you've experienced. )

You call and speak to anyone in Pistol Repair about it?

Yup the first time they replaced the striker assembly. He did not replace it because I asked him to send it back to Smith. If it is a problem they are having I want them to know about it just like the dead trigger.
I have tru glo fiber optics installed on the slide. So I really do not want any other sights on a new slide. A new barrel would be the next thing I would try, if I were them.
I am waiting to see what Smith says about this pistol.