Unintended discharge with 9mm M&P Shield results in fatality.

[Protected One]

Maybe keep the chamber empty.Medina Police Chief & ex-ATF supervisor Patrick Berarducci accidently shoots self in right leg | cleveland.com

NO to an empty chamber! The Chiefs problem resulted from holstering his gun without looking. He would have seen the draw string get caught in the trigger guard and avoided the problem.

 

[Protected One]

It occurs to me that people who advocate having an empty chamber for safety reasons are in reality trying to create a scenario that will "safely" allow them to avoid practicing gun safety.

 

[F75gunslinger]

The equation is NOT will I be better able to defend myself if I have a round in the chamber. If that were the only test, then there should always be a round in the chamber! What is my calculus? Is the reduction in threat to me with a round in the chamber, compared to risk with the first round still in the magazine, worth the increased threat to me and to others caused by the potential for a ND? I believe the answer is no, even if the risk is statistically very small, because of the moral responsibility involved if I hurt an innocent person by mistake.

I do not believe my right to defend myself outweighs everyone else's right to be safe. For most city/suburban scenarios, this rule means I do not intend to fire unless I know exactly what the backstop is going to be. I expect to run away, or hold fire and maneuver to a better firing location, yes potentially increasing the risk to me, to avoid hitting an innocent victim somewhere behind the threat.

Likewise, I practice a lot at the range, building on several shooting courses attended over the years, to increase the odds I will hit what I am going to shoot at. Which is part of the due diligence required before using a weapon in a defensive situation, in my opinion. Similarly, I select ammunition suited for the potential target and environment .

I think you have part of the idea correct, but part of it mistaken. If you feel that keeping the chamber empty when you're carrying is " a safeguard so others don't get put in danger",or a safeguard for yourself, then you feel that at some point you're going to be irresponsible. I was taught to ALWAYS treat a gun as if it's loaded.As such..I handle anything I pick up as if it's loaded, long gun or pistol. I think you have the right idea about training and practice,as well as choosing the right ammo.

(And note that this argument does not apply to the Police, who have an imperative to respond to violent actors, thus bringing great and unpredictable danger upon themselves AND the requirement to apply force to protect society, which justifies carrying rounds in the chamber)

I think though, that ANYONE who carries has the responsibility to do the same thing.To me it's part of the deal when deciding to exercise that right. You aren't only carrying to defend yourself, but yourself and your family , as well as anyone around you.And to me, as soon as a person pulls out a knife or a gun in public and makes demands or threats, then many peoples lives are in danger.

 

[schgsd]

I am a believer in not carrying a pistol with a round in the chamber -- I agree with motorcyclejoe. Others will disagree, but I want that conscious step in there. A thumb safety on a pistol is your friend.

One of the questions on the NRA basic handgun course asks about safety's. The correct answer for the test is that a mechanical safety can fail. They are telling you right there not to trust a mechanical device for a lethal weapon.

I have a Steyr L9-A1 and there is no mechanical safety at all. Even if there were I would not carry with a round in the chamber. My magazine is full but I will not risk an accidental pull of the trigger firing a round.

 

[Well Armed]

I also have young children and this is EXACTLY why I rather have a thumb safety on my firearm instead of trying to be one of those Glock fanboys and other sheeple.

Yes, proper firearm safety is paramount, but we're all human. No matter how perfect and God like some of you believe you are when it comes to firearm safety (especially when you have younger children around), absentmindedness, mistakes, and accidents can happen.

You all are not Gods and you are not perfect. I couldn't care any less about those who walk around all conceded with their chest poked out while scoffing and making "you're not man enough or trained enough" comments directed at those who choose to edge on the side of caution and reality just as long as it's those type of people who are having the accidental discharges and shooting and not me.

 

[wrhk33]

People are not perfect, I am very sad this woman died. I have seen many comments on the net proclaiming this woman an idiot, unsafe, no common sense ect. Not everyone is an expert, or can foresee all situations. I learn something new all the time. Carrying a gun for many is a learn on the job endeavor. She tried to do the right thing by being prepared to defend herself and her family. Until this story hit the news I had never seen this subject addressed in any CCW class. It may be obvious that she should have had the purse over her shoulder but it is easy to Monday morning quarterback. I'm far from perfect, I don't think I have ever met a person who has never made a mistake.

I worked with a guy who had two small kids. He thought for the longest time that his small son did not have the finger strength to fire his wife's DAO SP101. He gave the unloaded gun to his son to see if he could pull the trigger. The boy tried different ways to pull the trigger. He put the back of the grip against the floor and pushed down on the trigger. Theory one busted, he can cause the gun to fire. The same child also put his hands on his mother's weapon in her purse at the store. It was a lesson for this family and they changed how they did things.

 

[Absalom]

I usually lose the argument about a round in the chamber in terms of numbers -- most people disagree with me, and that is probably the case on this forum, too.
.........

That's just my philosophy. If you think my premise is correct -- that our firearms can potentially hurt innocent life as well as protect it -- there is a lot to think about, and perhaps getting that first shot off quickly is not #1.
.

I don't think this is about winning or losing the argument; you certainly make a good case for your reason for the empty chamber. While I don't agree with it generally, I think it's the right choice for a gun carried off-body, like in the truck or in this case a purse. I definitely do agree with your point that the safety of others does need to be taken into account, sometimes at the expense of our own optimal self defense options. I don't have kids in the house, but whenever friends or relatives with littles ones come over, all my (usually loaded) carry and home defense guns disappear in the safe, unloaded. If by some horrible coincidence intruders pick that time to attack, I'm screwed, but that's a risk I'm willing to take. Likewise, back when I lived in a downtown appartment, I limited my home defense to a .38 with Glaser safety slugs, despite their rather spotty reputation for effectiveness, solely due to their low penetration; I didn't fancy the idea of shooting through some thin walls in a defensive situation and accidentally killing someone next door. (I always cringe when I hear people talking about using their .223 AR for home defense, and hope they live in the boonies with no neighbors or at least in a solid stone house).

 

[KarmannGhia]

This is a sad and tragic story, and I pray for all involved.

The fact of the matter is this. This girl is gone as a result of a momentary lapse in judgment, that doesn't make her dumb (or an idiot, etc...).

We have all (me included) let our guard down, gotten distracted, or just plain screwed up at one time or another. I have had times in my life where shear luck is why I was not injured or killed.

Revolver or Semi-auto with chamber empty/loaded let your competence level and your comfort level be your guide.

This was a tragic accident, was it preventable, YES. This type of incident will happen again (and will continue to happen occasionally) as long as humans are involved in the equation. I see people hurt/killed all the time because they make a mistake while driving. People get injured: falling, cooking, using knives, chainsaws, etc.. Life is fragile, and it will end. I think we tend to forget that, until we are effected personally.

Stay safe, and keep your head in the game.

 

[had2]

Many of the reported deaths of "children" are the result of gangbanger gun battles by these so-called "children." So the CDC statistics are very misleading, and, I believe, intentionally skewed.

 

[AGoyette]

I am a woman and I carry.. (sounds like an opening at a guns anonymous meeting, lol )
I carry IWB. I looked at carry purses, but there were few that I liked. Plus I was working at the time, and I did not like the fact that the gun would be out of my control/reach most of the time. I also thought, what if I went to a friend's house or to a party, and put my purse down, thus my firearm would not be secure, and anyone could get to it. Plus plenty of purses have been stolen at the grocery store when they are left in the cart. It happened to my sister in law, her purse was next to her daughter in the cart. Someone came and lifted it and walked away. Plus if a gun is introduced to the house, the whole house should be taught gun safety. Both my girls had gun safety drummed into them since they were babies. Just like it was drummed into my head at an early age.
A lot of concealed carry purses have the ability to lock the pocket that the gun is in. If the gun was going to be not in her control, why wasn't the pocket locked? The story is a tragic one and one that could have been prevented in my opinion.

 

[mark32812]

I was looking at one of those kind of purses at gun show a few months back ago, and I asked myself what happens if the purse is stolen. I ended up putting it back on the table. It also looked ugly as well, and she would not have liked it. Her CCW should be here in a week so I am not sure how she plans to carry, one thing for sure after this shooting a gun in her purse is out of the question.

 

[PastureOfMuppets]

I can't get past the simple fact that she carried the weapon in such a way that a two year old was able to get hold of it. Of course it's tragic. Still, the kid should never have been able to get hold of it, in any circumstance!

That.


Off body carry = irresponsible.

I'm tired of it being taught for so many reasons.

Either carry or don't, if people don't want to work their wardrobe around it... then don't don't carry, it's obviously not important enough to them.

 

[PastureOfMuppets]

It occurs to me that people who advocate having an empty chamber for safety reasons are in reality trying to create a scenario that will "safely" allow them to avoid practicing gun safety.

We have a winner.

 

[Well Armed]

We have a winner.

How so? Please explain how someone not loading a round in a chamber equates to them looking for a reason to avoid handling a firearm safely? Who's to say that not carrying with a round in the chamber is NOT an extra step, albeit an extra roadblock/barrier, in handling a firearm safely and without a doubt insuring that the gun will not fire unless intended too. It's a tactic that can be used in combination with, not in spight of, other firearm safety methods.

A safety on the gun, keeping the firearm on her body, or not having a round in the chamber all equally and collectively would have saved the woman's life.

 

[Big1]

Sad, very sad and the kid once he fully find out what happen he is going to be out done because he done it. I hope that somebody will be able to talk to him and comfort his heart. I always carry one in the chamber I just have to be aware at all times.

 

[kbm6893]

I don't know where you got the idea that the number of tragic accidental shootings seem to far out number the number of times one actually defeats a mortal threat with pistol, but if you do some simple research you will find the opposite is actually true....by a large margin.

As to the notion of carrying without a round in the chamber, we are of course each free to make that decision for ourselves. But I encourage you to consider the following. You seem to recognize the fact that carrying a firearm is a large responsibility, and one not to be taken lightly. With that in mind, many of us (like-minded people) seek training and instruction from a reputable/licensed firearms instructor. Does it seem reasonable to you that if carrying without a round in the chamber was a good idea that those instructors would teach and encourage it? Yet, I know of none who do[any of them on the forum care to respond?].

Please consider finding out what those reasons are BEFORE you begin to carry. As uncomfortable as you obviously are with handling handguns in the manner for which they were designed, perhaps concealed carry should be delayed a bit, in the interest of your safety AND those you will be around.

There's a major flaw in your argument. Only accidental shootings where somebody was killed or injured are in your stats. Many more happen where nobody got hurt that don't get reported.

But since this is s fun forum where most of us carry, how about we take s poll?

Who here has had to Fire a weapon in self defense?

Now who here has had a ND?

Wanna bet the ND's are higher?

 

[Ranger17]

I am still newer to gun ownership (2 yrs) and less than that with my defensive handgun (9c). My views on guns has changed from when i was younger and in fact is still changing. And i am of the age where i'm not only a parent but have a grandson who just turned 2. So these stories really hit my heart and make me think.
This tragic incident is similar to at least a couple that happened in SC while we lived there. There is a good chance that when a child (not talking teen but small child) touches a gun something bad will happen. A child can be told "no" but there is no guarantee they will listen.
I am only speaking for myself but am of the belief that one needs a lot of training before they should be allowed to carry. Frankly same can be said for driving but thats for another thread. I have taken the ccw class and will soon have a card saying i can carry; but as there are responsibilities to go along with that right i wont carry until i feel i am truly ready.
I dont know if this mother had good training and it was just a lapse in judgement or if more training may have helped but that one moment changed their lives forever. My thoughts and prayers go out to that family, and can only hope if any positive can come out of this that it is to educate others so it may help prevent it from happening again.

 

[jeeps]

Child put car in gear drives into river dies. Same with cellphones more die than drunk driving ,young baby's and whole family's it don't matter.You can't fix stupid.

 

[fbcmrjrtykr]

My practice and philosophy has always been, "one in the chamber, safety on" for my EDC. If I had no safety, I would be down a round keeping the chamber empty. After all, as others have said, it only takes a second to rack the slide. My bedside gun has no safety so, until I procured a Gunvault for the drawer, the chamber stayed empty. Once I got the gunvault, I started keeping a round in the tube.

That philosophy is tested by the addition of a revo as a BUG. I suppose you could load it one round short but that defeats the purpose. Keeping it unloaded does as well as I don't believe that in a pressure situation, I'd have the time to load it. So what to do with it? For me, when it's off-body but stashed for emergency access, it is loaded but in a place where a child couldn't get to it.

I grieve for this family. I believe that, like me, the mother thought she was doing right. But a momentary lapse cost her her life. The father, God be with him, may always hold the child responsible in some corner of his mind. The boy? I pray that the Lord will comfort him when he comes to understand what happened.

I think, as responsible gun owners, our job is to learn from this tragedy. But let's not cast blame. Jesus said, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Whether you are a believer or not, that is a good word.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[speedyquad]

How so? Please explain how someone not loading a round in a chamber equates to them looking for a reason to avoid handling a firearm safely?

it creates the mindset that the firearm is NOT loaded and therefore those 4 golden rules need not be followed. that makes the person lax about following those rules all of the time.

in this case, the purse made her think the gun was secure, even out of her possession. she thought the purse made the gun safe. she was wrong.