Unintended discharge with 9mm M&P Shield results in fatality.

[Dutchboyy]

I believe this happened because the purse containing a firearm became "just a purse". The lady wouldn't have removed a holster with a firearm in it and thrown it into a shopping cart.

I think Johnmuratore makes a really key point here, and it's a good lesson.

Whatever the gun goes into becomes a "holster", and that object needs to be treated like a holstered gun and not like whatever it used to be. If the gun is in a range bag, an unlocked case, a purse, your overcoat pocket, or anything else that can be taken off-of-your-body, then that thing has stopped being whatever it used to be, and it has become a holster with a gun in it.

Keeping that visualization in mind will be helpful if you choose to carry off-body.

 

[PastureOfMuppets]

How so? Please explain how someone not loading a round in a chamber equates to them looking for a reason to avoid handling a firearm safely?

Because the mindset of someone carrying a gun without a round in the chamber is to carry an unloaded gun.

If someone is so worried about a gun discharging to carry unchambered, then they are not confident in their ability to carry a gun safely in the condition it needs to be to do the job they may need someday for it to do.

If the mindset is that they are not safe enough to carry a gun with a chambered round, then carrying it empty removes the need for them to carry it safely.

 

[PastureOfMuppets]

After all, as others have said, it only takes a second to rack the slide. My bedside gun has no safety so, until I procured a Gunvault for the drawer, the chamber stayed empty. Once I got the gunvault, I started keeping a round in the tube.

With all due respect, a second is a lot of time when an attack starts. Judging on time alone also takes out of the equation the assumption of the hand needed to rack the slide is going to free.

Here's the question... if someone attacks you with a fist, knife, bludgeoning weapon etc etc etc... what's your instinctive reaction?

It's for at least one hand to come up to protect yourself. The other instinct should be going for the gun.

With one hand trying to block... how does the round get chambered?

If not blocking, that's a second of someone with a window to attack or even intercept the gun and move it enough to lose the opportunity to load the gun.

Add multiple attackers and now the gun is out with no round in it and no shot fired... that's not good at all.



In the case of in the home... I'm open to discussion. There's lot's of circumstances, and the quick access safe does mitigate most. I go by the rule and gun should be within 5 seconds reach in the home to make it go bang if it has to.

For carry... it's a closed case as far as I'm concerned. A manual safety... that's a personal choice. Personally... no. But I also understand the reasoning behind people that do.

 

[mark32812]

I was looking at one of those kind of purses at gun show a few months back ago, and I asked myself what happens if the purse is stolen. I ended up putting it back on the table. It also looked ugly as well, and she would not have liked it. Her CCW should be here in a week so I am not sure how she plans to carry, one thing for sure after this shooting a gun in her purse is out of the question.

I am going to follow up on this post. I was at a gun show today in Orlando, they have a few tables with the conceal carry type purses, kind of like the one that the mother was using when the 2 year old got to her Shield. For the last year every time I passed this type of table I would see at least 2 or 3 women looking at them. But today every time I passed those tables not a woman was around. I am thinking that this shooting has opened up some eyes in this matter.

 

[schgsd]

With all due respect, a second is a lot of time when an attack starts. Judging on time alone also takes out of the equation the assumption of the hand needed to rack the slide is going to free.

Here's the question... if someone attacks you with a fist, knife, bludgeoning weapon etc etc etc... what's your instinctive reaction?

It's for at least one hand to come up to protect yourself. The other instinct should be going for the gun.

With one hand trying to block... how does the round get chambered?

If not blocking, that's a second of someone with a window to attack or even intercept the gun and move it enough to lose the opportunity to load the gun.

Add multiple attackers and now the gun is out with no round in it and no shot fired... that's not good at all.

You can list all the theoretical situations you want. The fact still remains, my weapon will never accidentally go off while I carry if I don't keep a round in the chamber. And as a responsible gun owner that's the only level of safety I'm willing to accept.

 

[PastureOfMuppets]

You can list all the theoretical situations you want.

That's not theoretical, your arm going up to block an attack is pretty much an absolute. It's a natural reaction, a big flinch.

Even simpler... go do a Tueller Drill. If that doesn't demonstrate how bad an idea carrying unloaded is nothing will.

I would go as far as saying carrying a gun unloaded is borderline irresponsible. You draw and it gets taken away from you... it's another gun in circulation on the black market.

 

[shawn mccarver]

An earlier post seemed to quote some liberal news outlet or anti-gun statistic.

Any of this stuff can be manipulated. It takes reading with discernment to really make sense of some of the sewage that spews forth from the anti-gun types.

For example, I once saw a poster about "gun violence" hanging in an "official office," and the poster had a clock face and made some ridiculous statement about how every so many minutes or seconds or whatever "someone's child" is killed by a gun. Now, I would remind everyone when you see such a poster that EVERYONE IN THE WORLD is someone's child, and so technically, every gun death fit that description. True? Only in the strangest sense of the word. Misleading? ABSOLUTELY. Be careful when reading.

And be more careful about how you carry your PDW. I do not favor off body carry, but women are often left with little other realistic choice.

Someone should have told that lady about the Magna Trigger safety.

 

[Well Armed]

Because the mindset of someone carrying a gun without a round in the chamber is to carry an unloaded gun.

If someone is so worried about a gun discharging to carry unchambered, then they are not confident in their ability to carry a gun safely in the condition it needs to be to do the job they may need someday for it to do.

If the mindset is that they are not safe enough to carry a gun with a chambered round, then carrying it empty removes the need for them to carry it safely.

Why because you say so? How do you know the mindset of others? What proof or data do you have to back up this claim? Most responsible gun owners know to treat a gun as if it's loaded whether their a bullet in the chamber or not.

I guess, using that same logic, when I clean my gun, I shouldn't unload it first because if I get into the habit of unload it first before cleaning, I will have the mindset that that it's always unloaded which would lead me to possibly sweeping a myself or others with a gun I THINK is NOT load... Lord I hope that you don't unload your gun before switching out sights, cleaning, etc. It's going to cause you to disregard everything you've ever been taught about gun safety.

 

[Well Armed]

You can list all the theoretical situations you want. The fact still remains, my weapon will never accidentally go off while I carry if I don't keep a round in the chamber. And as a responsible gun owner that's the only level of safety I'm willing to accept.

His assertions are theoretical. It's the same tactics that antis use when trying to make the case against guns. It's a fact that's damn near set in stone that there are more accidental discharges that involve loaded and chambered safety off handguns than there are with gun owners who use gun safeties or who do not chamber a round.

Matter of fact, those who are making up all these scenarios have yet to supply any statistics or cite any real world instances. It's all theoretical. What's factually is NOT theoretical and is statistically more likely to happen are accidental shootings. What is factual is that an accidental discharge which is more likely to happen, can not happen if a round is not chambered.

That's not theoretical, your arm going up to block an attack is pretty much an absolute. It's a natural reaction, a big flinch.

I can play the same game too. You know when someone pulls out a gun and points it at you, you're going to run, duck for cover, or stop what you're doing. It's a natural reaction, a big flitch. I can then chamber a round in a micro second and fire. If they're close enough to grab my gun and take it from me, than they can still do so whether it's chambered or not. Of course I can't back this up with statistics, but this story coincides with my point of view, so I'm think I'm going to stick with it.

 

[PastureOfMuppets]

If they're close enough to grab my gun and take it from me, than they can still do so whether it's chambered or not.

Have you been drinking or something?

The whole point is to put enough rounds in the person they stop attacking. If an attacker manages to take a gun off you it should be despite being shot, not because you couldn't shoot.

His assertions are theoretical. It's the same tactics that antis use when trying to make the case against guns. It's a fact that's damn near set in stone that there are more accidental discharges that involve loaded and chambered safety off handguns than there are with gun owners who use gun safeties or who do not chamber a round.

Matter of fact, those who are making up all these scenarios have yet to supply any statistics or cite any real world instances. It's all theoretical. What's factually is NOT theoretical and is statistically more likely to happen are accidental shootings. What is factual is that an accidental discharge which is more likely to happen, can not happen if a round is not chambered.



I can play the same game too. You know when someone pulls out a gun and points it at you, you're going to run, duck for cover, or stop what you're doing. It's a natural reaction, a big flitch. I can then chamber a round in a micro second and fire. If they're close enough to grab my gun and take it from me, than they can still do so whether it's chambered or not. Of course I can't back this up with statistics, but this story coincides with my point of view, so I'm think I'm going to stick with it.

ing up all these scenarios have yet to supply any statistics or cite any real world instances.

The Teuller Drill.

There is a reason it is taught everywhere, and used in courts to demonstrate proximity Vs draw speed.

Go learn about it, go do the exercise then we can talk about having enough time to chamber a round.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwHYRBNc9r8

Remember, that's at 21 feet. At ten feet... ugh. 6... 5... 4...

That's also not someone just blindsiding you and getting the first blow in without you seeing it coming

If you want to go statistics... have you ever broken down those statistics on "accidental discharges" (I put it with the punctuation because there is no such thing as an accidental discharge, only negligent)? What, for example is the most common calibre involved in injury or death? What kind of gun uses that calibre? Is it a defensive firearm calibre?

That's a good start in examining broad statistics before applying them to a specific grouping. For example... do hunters or target shooters have more ND's than CCW permit holders?




Then... what real world instances do you want? It's not rocket science to understand an arm will go up to block if someone tries to hit or stab you is it?

That's not a scenario, it's an example of the general rule of instinct. Something that's covered in any decent defense class. Scenario and example are two different things.

Anyone thinking unloaded carry is a good idea really should go and do some force on force training and learn for themselves.




But of course, loaded or unloaded... it's your life, your decision.

 

[schgsd]

I can play the same game too. You know when someone pulls out a gun and points it at you, you're going to run, duck for cover, or stop what you're doing. It's a natural reaction, a big flitch. I can then chamber a round in a micro second and fire. If they're close enough to grab my gun and take it from me, than they can still do so whether it's chambered or not. Of course I can't back this up with statistics, but this story coincides with my point of view, so I'm think I'm going to stick with it.

Yeah I hadn't gone that far yet with my response. I'll add that my belief system says that if my weapon comes out whoever is looking at me won't know if I need to rack a round. So in addition to the run, duck etc I'm betting you'll see an increasingly larger wet stain on a pair of pants. By that point they will have watched me rack a round in it, and I'll bet they do something else in their pants also.

And to restate from an earlier post. The only correct answer to question 16 on the NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Course exam referring to the safety is that it is "a mechanical device and can fail". So I think that those of us that don't keep a round chambered are hardly irresponsible. We are just following good safety practices.

And Veronica Rutledge would also be alive today.

 

[Muss Muggins]

As long as I'm not forced by a group of misguided lobbyists and legislators to carry my firearm(s) with an empty chamber, it doesn't matter to me one scintilla how others carry their firearms. This discussion does, however, force me to reconsider my reload/spare magazine contingency planning, in the unlikely event I ever decide to assist all these people carrying handgun shaped clubs and paper weights if they get attacked next to me . . .

 

[BE Mike]

I think this reinforces my commitment to revolvers for CC. I don't think the poor little guy would have been strong enough to pull the trigger on DA . Just too sad for words and my heart goes out to them all.

Actually, I personally know of an incident where an unattended S&W model 66 was fired by a two-year old. One thing that I didn't see mentioned is education. It is never too early to educate children in the area of gun safety.

 

[fbcmrjrtykr]

With all due respect, a second is a lot of time when an attack starts. Judging on time alone also takes out of the equation the assumption of the hand needed to rack the slide is going to free.

Here's the question... if someone attacks you with a fist, knife, bludgeoning weapon etc etc etc... what's your instinctive reaction?

It's for at least one hand to come up to protect yourself. The other instinct should be going for the gun.

With one hand trying to block... how does the round get chambered?

If not blocking, that's a second of someone with a window to attack or even intercept the gun and move it enough to lose the opportunity to load the gun.

Add multiple attackers and now the gun is out with no round in it and no shot fired... that's not good at all.



In the case of in the home... I'm open to discussion. There's lot's of circumstances, and the quick access safe does mitigate most. I go by the rule and gun should be within 5 seconds reach in the home to make it go bang if it has to.

For carry... it's a closed case as far as I'm concerned. A manual safety... that's a personal choice. Personally... no. But I also understand the reasoning behind people that do.

PastureofMuppets, I know your background is teaching defensive tactics and you make an excellent point. My comments and thoughts about carrying or storing with an empty chamber were made specifically with the idea that a child might get their hands on my guns and reflected what my thinking was when I first got into guns.

When I got my first handgun, as I said, I did keep the chamber empty. I was uncomfortable doing that so I bought a Gunvault to secure it. From that point on, it's been full loaded. My EDC has a safety so it's never been carried w/o a round in the chamber.

Admittedly, I used to think, if I carried a gun w/o a safety, I might have to carry it with an empty chamber, but the acquisition of a revolver has changed that. It would be foolish to carry a revo without a round ready to fire. The "safety", such as it is, is in responsible handling and protection of the revolver. Therefore, if I ever buy an EDC that has no mechanical safety, I will still carry with a round in the chamber and rely on the real safety, which is me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Doug M.]

You can list all the theoretical situations you want. The fact still remains, my weapon will never accidentally go off while I carry if I don't keep a round in the chamber. And as a responsible gun owner that's the only level of safety I'm willing to accept.

*
Try this: as long as you obey rule 3 and keep your booger picker off the loud switch, you will never have a negligent or unintentional discharge.
I do not know of any credible, qualified, responsible self-defense or LE instructor who would ever teach, allow, or consider appropriate empty chamber carry. Completely football bat. The odds of your defensive firearm going when you NEED it to are also zero if you carry with an empty chamber.

 

[motorcyclejoe]

400,000 per day?

I don't know where you got the idea that the number of tragic accidental shootings seem to far out number the number of times one actually defeats a mortal threat with pistol, but if you do some simple research you will find the opposite is actually true....by a large margin.

As to the notion of carrying without a round in the chamber, we are of course each free to make that decision for ourselves. But I encourage you to consider the following. You seem to recognize the fact that carrying a firearm is a large responsibility, and one not to be taken lightly. With that in mind, many of us (like-minded people) seek training and instruction from a reputable/licensed firearms instructor. Does it seem reasonable to you that if carrying without a round in the chamber was a good idea that those instructors would teach and encourage it? Yet, I know of none who do[any of them on the forum care to respond?].

Please consider finding out what those reasons are BEFORE you begin to carry. As uncomfortable as you obviously are with handling handguns in the manner for which they were designed, perhaps concealed carry should be delayed a bit, in the interest of your safety AND those you will be around.

Thanks for the advice. While I would like to pursue the issue of the number of times a mortal threat is defeated (later) we do agree on many points. My cc permit arrived a few days ago. I have no intention of carrying until I have successfully completed the level III advanced pistol defense course. I have completed the concealed carry, intro, and level I pistol defense courses and will begin level II pistol defense soon. I also purchased 4 hours of one-on-one training and have used 2 sessions so far. I will not carry until I am confident I have the skills, training, and hours of practice to function correctly in a high stress situation. I'm in no rush - I've made it 68 years thus far without carrying so I guess I can wait another 6 months.

On the chamber/no-chamber issue I understand you could lose seconds if you need to rack the slide, that you introduce another opportunity for error, and that as a result you may die. I get that. I am just willing to take that risk to introduce another layer of safety should the weapon somehow find it's way into a child's hands, or should the trigger get caught on some clothing, or I should make a mistake drawing in a high stress situation, etc. Those of you that never make mistakes need not worry about this.

On the issue of threats defeated by those carrying it would be great if someone could point me to the data and studies that back up the claims that have been made. Earlier in the thread it was stated that 400,000 threats are defeated on a daily basis. Can anyone provide the basis for this number?

 

[schgsd]

*
Try this: as long as you obey rule 3 and keep your booger picker off the loud switch, you will never have a negligent or unintentional discharge.
I do not know of any credible, qualified, responsible self-defense or LE instructor who would ever teach, allow, or consider appropriate empty chamber carry. Completely football bat. The odds of your defensive firearm going when you NEED it to are also zero if you carry with an empty chamber.

Wrong. Veronica's booger picker never touched the loud switch now did it? You can make all the plans you want concerning yourself. And maybe you will live a perfect life and never experience an accidental discharge by your own hand. But to stick your head in the sand and deny the possibility of any one in a million Murphys law scenarios is completely irresponsible to me. Nearly all of us live with other human beings around us and every one of them have the option of doing who knows what in the next instant of your life. Sure we can educate, teach the safe handling and use of firearms but in the end all that will do is reduce the chance of an accident.

It's a choice for sure, but we aren't dealing with a dented fender on a car kind of accident here. If Veronica hadn't had a round in the chamber, she would still be alive.

 

[hokiefyd]

Does anyone know if her Shield was the more common model with a thumb safety, or the newer model without a thumb safety?

 

[speedyquad]

If Veronica hadn't had a round in the chamber, she would still be alive.

if Veronica had not left the firearm unattended and out of her control, the child would not have been able to fire it. that failure is the important one here.

saying having a round in the chamber is analogous to the antis saying she should not have had a firearm in the first place.

the purse she was carrying in created a false sense of security, much like not having a round in the chamber.

when i started carrying, a sigma, it was my first firearm without a manual safety. i carried empty chamber. i started noticing, in the first few months of carrying, that would would not follow all of those golden rules because..."there's nothing in the chamber, it's essentially unloaded"...after 2 or 3 times that i caught myself doing that, i thought...carry one chambered...it's been a few years now. do you want to know how many times i've accidentally swept someone...ZERO...my thought process always has the gun loaded now...because it is and there is no sense of security...

the rules need to be followed, chambered or unchambered. period. if you get into the mindset that there is nothing chambered, you are in the mindset that the gun is unloaded.

 

[EnticeTheMalice]

I'm still waiting for my CC permit so I have no experience carrying. However, given that the number of tragic accidental shootings seem to far out number the number of times one actually defeats a mortal threat with pistol, I've already decided to never carry with a round in the chamber. I'm willing to take the chance of dying because I couldn't respond quickly enough, rather than risk a tragic accident that I could regret for the rest of my life (of course that is assuming my death is not the tragedy.) I keep a loaded magazine (secured and locked with the pistol) near by, but it is not going in the pistol in my home unless I am dealing with a threat.

Bottom line is I want a firearm available, on short notice, for home defense or carry - but not instantaneously available at the risk of a tragedy.

Just my 2 cents.

You need more practice when it comes to handling firearms. In fact I would recommend you don't even carry until you are comfortable carrying a loaded weapon on your person. If carried properly in a proper carry holster that protects the trigger you have nothing to worry about. You need to understand guns won't just go off. You should also never carry of body or leave a bag with a loaded weapon in the possession of a 2 year old. I'm sure he's seen his mom put in there take it out which is why he probably got to it so fast.

Personally I appendix carry a non safety shield 9mm with a 3.18 pound trigger pull.