updated 02/14 - MY COLT 1911 COLT GOLD CUP WEIRDED OUT YESTERDAY - OR SO I THOUGHT!

[38magnum]

Honest question, would shooting 230 grn FMJ clean out extreme leading in a situation such as this ?

um unfortunately no..

the polymer coating is not lead, it is more like a really soft copper jacket. it relies upon the bullet itself being able to deform.

Shooting a jacketed round with this much buildup would be a bad idea

 

[Dave Haynes]

1911 barrels have very shallow rifling as it is. My F.Bob Chow 1911 has had tens of thousands of rounds of hardball and Markel reloads through it shot by the previous owner on an Army pistol team. It shoots great groups with lead reloads and no leading at all. I'd look at that barrel very closely and see what it has left. I wonder if the polymer coating wears a barrel faster than a well lubed lead projectile?
I remember my Drill instructor warning all of the kids that more barrels are ruined with a cleaning rod than bullets. All this talk of scrubbing away debris scares me.

 

[phoebeisis]

My all time favorite target and competition pistol is my Colt Series 70 Gold Cup National Match from the early 1970's. I have won a bunch of competitions with it and while I haven't kept track of exactly how many rounds I have put through it, I know it's been at least 3,000 a year so the round count has got to be up around 150,000 rounds - give or take a few. In that time the only thing I have had to do is to stake a new plunger tube on for the safety & slide catch and about 8 months ago the original Elaison rear sight gave up the ghost. Thankfully, the Elaison sights are still being made and I ordered a new one and put it in. Other than those two items, I have had no other issues and the pistol is extremely accurate, smooth and ultra reliable! I would shoot it against any of the high end custom 1911's! It is also my best shooting pistol.

I shoot mostly reloaded 230 grain RNL Polymer coated bullets that I load myself. The last time I ordered bullets, I ordered 20,000 of them. I used to use uncoated lead bullets but do like the cleanliness and no lube feature of the Polymer coating. So far I have gone through at least 60% of them - no issues at all. Normally I shoot about 100 rounds per range session, but sometimes more.

Yesterday at the outdoor range I was shooting the Gold Cup and all of a sudden my groups were moving up and to the left. They kept drifting farther & farther away from the bullseye the more I shot. I inspected the pistol and everything looked fine, including the Elaison rear sight that I replaced 8 months ago. When I tried to make adjustments with the screws, the groups really did not improve nor move much! WTH??!!

Anyway, after shooting 150 rounds and getting nowhere fast, I put the pistol away and left the range in frustration thinking something is going on with the recently replaced rear sight.

So when I walk in the door, I called Kensight which is where I bough the rear sight from. I left a message and they called me back within 10 minutes. We spend a half hour on the phone and I admittedly told the Gentleman I could not really see anything wrong with the sight, but why else would my groups have moved so much and not be correctible? He suggested a few sight function checks and I did do them - could not find any issues.

I told him that I would clean the pistol and inspect it closer and more carefully, then report back. So I took the pistol apart, again the rear sight seemed fine and went over the pistol carefully. Everything was perfect BUT when I looked into the barrel I saw leading the likes of which I had never had in my Gold Cup! Now remember, I have shot at least 12,000 rounds of these Polymer coated bullets through the same gun and other guns - no issues at all. After a good Hoppes soaking, it took me almost 45 minutes using a Bronze Phosphor bore brush, a Lewis Lead Remover and plenty of patches but I finally removed all the leading. Apparently, there was so much lead and polymer build up in the last inch (muzzle) of the barrel, it was throwing shot placement off big time! I have never had this issue before and can only believe I had shot some defective polymer coated bullets this range session. Maybe the bullets were to large (I do spot check with a caliper, but not every single bullet), maybe they were not sized properly, or maybe the coating was put on too thick. The polymer formulation could have been a bit off, or maybe the process was a bit off for that bunch on that particular day - who knows! The Company that made them was around for almost 40 years but they are no longer in business - I believe the owner passed. They have always made good quality bullets however I have at least "some" that obviously have issues! How many I have is an unknown. All I can and will do is shoot them and at the very first sign of bullet drift I will check the barrel. I am hoping that this was a once in the batch irregularity as there have never been any other problems. Hopefully this was just an isolated incident and won't ever happen again! My 1911's normally never lead up!

I will call Kensight early next week after shooting the Gold Cup for a test outing and a readjustment of the rear sight. Normally a proper and high quality adjustable rear sight should not move by itself. I wanted to post his just incase this ever happens to one of you - with any firearm shooting lead or polymer coated bullets. I did not think to check the barrel as I never before had a leading or polymer build up issue with these bullets in many years of using them! I have also reaffirmed in my head that no matter how good a product is, how long you have used it or how it has performed in the past, there can always be a "bad batch" of whatever.

Hopefully, problems solved.

UPDATED 02/14/25:

After I thoroughly cleaned my Colt GCNM last week I took the pistol back to the range today to prove out my theory. It took me a half dozen rounds or so to sight the pistol in again after messing with the sight adjustments last week thinking that was the issue. Once I got the sights dead-on, I shot 5 or 6 targets (7 shots each) and the bullets hit exactly where I aimed at 50 feet. Here are the 3 best targets - 7 shots each. After 50 rounds of my Polymer coated lead 230 grain bullets, accuracy started waning once again. My groups started climbing high and right except this time I knew not to mess with the sights. After 80 rounds today I took the pistol home, stripped it and yup - the barrel was full of polymer and lead again. After cleaning it up I now know that the batch of polymer bullets I am currently using are faulty. I bought 20,000 of them and have shot at least 12,000 with no issues at all. I now must do some weighing, measuring and thinking why this is happening. I hope since this is the very last batch I reloaded a few months ago this situation will end soon and I can get back to normalcy. The bullet company I bought them from has always been reliable and made excellent quality bullets however the owner has died and the company is no longer around. I also know I can accurately shoot up to 50 rounds before putting the pistol away for the day. I have too many bullets left to just toss em! At the 50 - 60 round count the leading is easily removed with a bronze bore brush so no big deal. I simply won't shoot more than that in 1 session until I buy new bullets to reload - unless POI remains consistent with my POA.

In all the 50 years I own this Colt CGNM, I have never seen leading like this (always have shot plain lead bullets)- but this is also the first time I have purchased polymer coated bullets in 45acp. I also now see first hand just how severely barrel leading effects accuracy!

Well, at least I now the issue was not me, not the pistol and not the barrel - that in itself is a relief! Below are the first few targets 7 rounds ea. shot at 50ft.

I am kicking myself reading this.1974 I bought a NRA Centennial GC PRETTY GUN GREAT SHOOTING Dummy I sold it1995 or so

 

[6string]

Not many people remember this, but, perhaps 20-25 years ago, molybdenum coated bullets were all the rage. It was used on cast lead and jacketed bullets.

The claims were: better accuracy, higher velocity due to reduced friction, and drastic improvement in barrel cleanliness. After you shot a few rounds to “condition” the barrel, you were all set!

Then a problem was noticed. The coating had trace amounts of sodium, if I recall correctly. This proved to be a magnet for corrosion. Many, many nice, expensive match grade barrels were pitted and corroded as a result.
Somehow, the issue got buried or forgotten.
The bullets were discontinued, companies went out of business, and that was that.

So, when the new fad of powder coating cast bullets started, I took a pass.
If it works for you, that’s great!
But, why mess with success?
Cast bullets, using proper alloys and traditional lubes work great!
I even like the smoke and the smell!

Glad you got your problem solved!
Nice shooting!

 

[chief38]

Honest question, would shooting 230 grn FMJ clean out extreme leading in a situation such as this ?

WIld that proceedure might appear to clean the deposits out, in actuallity it exacerbates the issue by forcing the debris deeper into the lands and groves and makes it even harder to clean.

 

[chief38]

Thankfully I still have plenty pf 230 grain RNL 45 acp bullets that I will now load up. If the issue goes away then the polymer bullets (heads) get tossed.

 

[Yendor357]

People are always fixing what isn’t broken, until it is.

What Six String said, right on the money.

Molybediumdisulfide powder is what that stuff was.
It was an awful mess from start to finish. It took 20 rounds of those coated bullets before my rifle would settle down. If you cleaned your barrel right after shooting, you were ok. But moisture plus the Moly would form a mild sulfuric acid.

I never jumped on the powder coating bandwagon either.
The most accurate 22 LR ammo is generally uncoated, not copper plated. Why? Because the copper plating, or any coating is simply one more thing to go wrong.

I’ll stick with Lyman Alox in the groove it was intended.

 

[scattershot]

FWIW, I had a severe buildup in one of my 45s a while back, shooting HiTec coated bullets. I called the manufacturer, and he explained that they had gotten a bad batch of the coating material. Maybe your large order contAined bullets from several different runs, and you got a bad batch mixed in.