USAF Revolver course of Fire Questions

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Tacoman21

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Hello,

I've been searching for information for quite some time—are there any former USAF Combat Arms instructors here who remember or have details on the course of fire for the Model 15 revolver? I've reached out to all of my CATM friends, but they haven't been able to find anything, considering the last time it was officially fired was in 1992.

I'd love to find this information and run the course of fire for fun. I hope this knowledge hasn't been lost to history.

Thanks for your time!
 
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I don't know if this helps, but I qualified Marksman with the Model 15 well over 50 years ago. I was in SE Asia at the time.

The course of fire was from a single position with any hold the shooter wanted to use. I used the Weaver stance. I don't recall the number of rounds we shot but it required reloading several times. I don't remember the distance to the target either, but it was a comfortable distance, using a B-27 target (I think).

It was pretty humorous actually. We took our target to the rangemaster, so he could count the hits to decide if we qualified. He could not count mine because the center of the target was just gone. He looked at me with a slight grin, handed me a chit and said, "You qualified as Markman. Go back to your unit."

I didn't tell him that I'd been shooting S&W revolvers for at least a decade before I entered the USAF. Carried a Model 15 for two years over there. I only had to draw it once. That's a longer story I don't particularly want to tell.
 
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I don't know if this will help much. I was a dog handler in the AF in the early 70's. I recall, that's a long time ago remember, that we had basically a course of fire of single action from a standing position with a time limit. The limit was ridiculously long. We did 50 rounds total in standing, right barricade then left barricade and kneeling. I recall the target was close, maybe 15 yards but could have been 25, and had scoring rings. You had to get a certain point total to get marksman. In the early 80's, just before I cross-trained out of Law Enforcement for finance, we changed the targets to just a silhouette without scoring rings. You still fired 50 rounds in basically the same format but now only had to have 38 or 39 I think, hits to qualify. That's the best I can remember.

We never trained shooting the Md 15 double action that I remember. In the early 80's at Edwards AFB I was associated with a AF Reserve Unit. There were several LAPD officers in it who at that time still used Md 15s. The only trained double action and when they qualified only shot the course of fire in double action. Each one was a much better shot than me. Very humbling.
 
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Tacoman21 said:
Hello,

I've been searching for information for quite some time—are there any former USAF Combat Arms instructors here who remember or have details on the course of fire for the Model 15 revolver? I've reached out to all of my CATM friends, but they haven't been able to find anything, considering the last time it was officially fired was in 1992.

I'd love to find this information and run the course of fire for fun. I hope this knowledge hasn't been lost to history.

Thanks for your time!
Click to expand...

When I was still in the active reserves the Air Force had a program called the "Excellence in Marksmanship" and bases would have matches to promote it. March AFB was scheduled a match but it was during the first Gulf Games and we were very short on 9mm ammo for the M-9s. So the match would happen, the CATMs folks decided to run the match with the model 15s still in inventory along with plenty of .38 spl ammo. I remember the faces of a lot of the young officers and Airmen when they walked up to the line and there was one of those funny looking guns with a round- wheely things on the shooting bench that most were not very familiar with. The match was shot with "rack grade guns" but being an old Grandmaster PPC shooter I thought it was great. We were not allowed to make sight adjustments but were given 5 rounds for practice so I quickly figured out how it was targeting. I won that match with a 299/300. Most of those guys couldn't manage that DA trigger.
 
Spent most of my service time in the army, but during my brief few years in the Air Force Reserve I had the opportunity to shoot the qualification course with a model 15. They handed each shooter a model 15 and 50 rounds of ammo. already bring a gun guy and revolver nut, I paid attention. Some were original blued guns and some had been parkerized
It was a single target at 25 yards. We did 12 rounds standing 12 rounds kneeling and then there were several iterations of shoot 6 crouch behind cover and reload then pop back up and shoot 6 more. My target had one ragged hole in the center and got me the expert ribbon. The instructor thought it odd that a butter bar medical officer shot that well.
This was in the mid 1990's after the active duty had transitioned to the M9, but guard and reserve units were still using model 15's Inot the late 90's.
 
Kidding aside... My friend was a Captain (Retied as a Res. Lt. Colonel) in the Security Police.

He had a bunch of leftover Ball ammo that he had carried on duty in his 15...that stuff was much hotter than the 158 P+ FBI loads...anyone ever clock that stuff...

Bob
 
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Probably a little too early but check out FM 23-35 AFM 50-17 Pistols and Revolvers July 1960.

Paragraphs 146 starting on page 133 covers the 'practical' revolver qualification course. It refers back to earlier paragrpahs for record firing qualification.
FM 23-35 Pistols and Revolvers : United States. Department of the Army : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Between this and the ones below you've bracketed the time period of your interest. Then see what orders or field manuals superceded the July 1960 AFM50-17 or preceded the current manuals.

DWalt said:
This is the current AFM. No idea how it differs from 30 years ago, probably not a great deal. All my experience was with the M9 and M11. https://www.reveresriders.org/wp-co...Qualification-Programs-August-2016.pdf#page63 and also see https://www.reveresriders.org/wp-co...-Programs-Individual-Use-Weapons-May-2004.pdf
Click to expand...
 
JP@AK said:
I don't know if this helps, but I qualified Marksman with the Model 15 well over 50 years ago. I was in SE Asia at the time.

The course of fire was from a single position with any hold the shooter wanted to use. I used the Weaver stance. I don't recall the number of rounds we shot but it required reloading several times. I don't remember the distance to the target either, but it was a comfortable distance, using a B-27 target (I think).

It was pretty humorous actually. We took our target to the rangemaster, so he could count the hits to decide if we qualified. He could not count mine because the center of the target was just gone. He looked at me with a slight grin, handed me a chit and said, "You qualified as Markman. Go back to your unit."

I didn't tell him that I'd been shooting S&W revolvers for at least a decade before I entered the USAF. Carried a Model 15 for two years over there. I only had to draw it once. That's a longer story I don't particularly want to tell.
Click to expand...

Jack,

I know where you were with this. One of our department qualifications the individual "scoring" my target gave me a piss-poos score because he only counted bullet holes he could see! He called all other misses! This was on a full size NRA silhouette with the x-ring shot out and only a few visible shots in the ten-ring! I was department armorer, firearms instructor, and pistol team member at the time. I shot NRA Master on the PPC course in competition at the time! He got straightened out on how targets are supposed to be scored!
 
I was medical aircrew and therefore technically a noncombatant, but we still had to qualify with firearms. We passed, so long as we didn't shoot ourselves. :D:D

I have the USAF Expert Marksman badge like JP@AK has for his avatar, with a star for expert in handgun and rifle. I don't clearly remember what the course of fire was, but I do remember we shot a revolver and not a semiauto pistol, this was in 1987. I thought it was super easy, as I had been shooting PPC for several years as a Correctional Officer prior to going to Nursing school and then joining the military. We also shot the M16, but in semiauto only. I did a couple of advanced courses while I was at Ramstein AB during Desert Storm. I had a lot of free time while on base and I got acquainted with the Combat Arms guys and would head to the range on most of my off duty time. My favorite while I was there was the opportunity to shoot the MG42. I can see why it was so feared during WWII.
 
SuperMan said:
Kidding aside... My friend was a Captain (Retied as a Res. Lt. Colonel) in the Security Police.

He had a bunch of leftover Ball ammo that he had carried on duty in his 15...that stuff was much hotter than the 158 P+ FBI loads...anyone ever clock that stuff...

Bob
Click to expand...

Indeed, the USAF did have a fairly powerful .38 Special load. It was USAF specific. It was more or less equivalent to the old .38-44 load. And it was fairly tough on the M15 revolvers. It was designated as the PGU-12/B and operated at about 20 KPSI and a MV around 1100 ft/sec with a 130 grain FMJ bullet. Ballistically it was very close to the GI M882 9mm FMJ load used in the M9 pistol. Sort of tough to come by, was used for only a few years during the Vietnam era. It is sort of strange looking and readily identified by its appearance.
 
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I was security police from 86-90, we shot our primary weapon 2 times a year. One was AFQC and the other SPC. AFQC was shot on the old classic man silhouette(FBI target?) with scoring rings and SPC was more of a combat style shot on a green silhouette with no scoring rings.

A few years ago I scored a couple of boxes of the PGU 12 ammo and in my 4" M15 it was a little over 950fps. It does have an odd appearance with the deep seated bullet. I think they simply deep seated the standard m41 ball bullet deeper in the case which resulted in the higher pressure and velocity.
 
Thanks for the help! I think FM 23-35 is going to be super helpful. I have shot the M9 AFQ many times—it was always fun, but I always wondered what the folks ahead of me went through. One of my claims to fame was shooting expert at Eielson AFB when it was -38 degrees. That was special because, when I was there, the range would shut down at -40.

One of the funniest signs I ever saw in my Air Force career was at that range. In the bathroom stall, there was a red line taped on the ground, oriented left to right, right in front of the toilet. The sign above it read: "Shooters with shooter barrels, please put your toes on the line." To me, that was just so funny.
 
Tacoman21 said:
One of the funniest signs I ever saw in my Air Force career was at that range. In the bathroom stall, there was a red line taped on the ground, oriented left to right, right in front of the toilet. The sign above it read: "Shooters with shooter barrels, please put your toes on the line." To me, that was just so funny.
Click to expand...

The signs in the Marine latrines say "Don't eat the big white mint." :rolleyes:
 
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