USMC MARKED VICTORY

[KEVCON]

Hello my fellow enthusiasts!

I've had a Victory model stashed away for a few years that I picked up at a local auction house in SoCal. I had meant to post about it after receiving it but life got complicated and that task became a low priority. I probably paid too much for it but I had to have it because it had "PROPERTY USMC" marked on the left side of it. I'm a retired Marine and having something marked USMC is kind of neat.

Even though I have several other Victory's in various markings from U.S. Navy, U.S. Government, etc. from original finishes to refinished I don't consider myself a connoisseur of them. I simply buy them if I find them at a reasonable price, each time hoping I get something more unique than the previous one.

That said, somewhere in the back of my mind I thought I have seen where the USMC may not actually mean United States Marine Corps but something else. It does have U.S. Navy marked on the top strap. I'm sure someone here can quickly straighten me out.

Regardless, I still like the USMC markings on it.

On another note, for those that are history/firearm/USMC buffs does anyone know if the Marine pilots actually carried Victories in the cockpit and if so what the markings were? U.S. Navy if not USMC?

 

[murphydog]

Cool gun! I have seen a post here about a similar gun and seem to recall the stamping stands for US Maritime Commission but one of the real experts like kwill1911 will be along with more information.

I think USMC aviators during WW II would have had US Navy stamped guns, or later in the war generically stamped ones.

 

[KEVCON]

After seeing US Maritime Commission in print from you I think it might have been one of the old guys at the auction house that suggested that to me when he asked why I was set on outbidding everyone to win this particular firearm. Of course that could have been harassment as well (lol). I look forward to hearing from kwill1911 if he comes along. Thanks for the memory jolt.

 

[larryofcc]

After seeing US Maritime Commission in print from you I think it might have been one of the old guys at the auction house that suggested that to me when he asked why I was set on outbidding everyone to win this particular firearm. Of course that could have been harassment as well (lol). I look forward to hearing from kwill1911 if comes along. Thanks for the memory jolt.

Hi fellow Marine and thank you for your service to our country.
To get an honest to goodness Marine firearm, let me suggest a Remington 40X SB that is marked Property of the USMC and they really were. The CMP sold these a few years back for around $800. Most had badly scratched bbls, but they were genuine Marine issue starting around 1958. They only made 2687 of the Marine marked rifles in two orders. Last nice one I saw for sale brought $2,500. Army ones do not bring that kind of $$$. Semper Fi. Big Larry

 

[Absalom]

With the US NAVY topstrap stamp, we can pretty much eliminate the Maritime Commission, unless that stamp is fake, which it does not look like.

Marine aviators did indeed carry Navy-procured guns. However, no general markings denoting the Corps are known; Charles Pate in his book lists the PROPERTY USMC as a possible fake stamp, apparently because he had an example where it showed up on a gun that lettered as shipped to Ford Motor Co., so it was originally an unmarked DSC contract gun, non-military with the stamp added later by parties unknown.

Your Navy stamp makes that a bit less likely, but is not proof of authenticity.

 

[KEVCON]

That is very interesting. So a step towards authenticity would be a letter to see if it was indeed a U.S. Navy firearm. However, that doesn't guarantee that someone just didn't slap on the PROPERTY USMC at a later time during its lifetime. I have added a close up picture of the USMC markings.

 

[chiefdave]

S/N V408987 is said to have been issued to Major Gregory "Pappy" Boington, USMC. Think everyone has heard of him.

I have seen Colt Official Police and Commandos USMC marked and lettered as delivered to the Marines. Tough to find one for sale because you bellhops hoard them.

 

[DWalt]

A Victory with a PROPERTY USMC stamping or engraving would be very suspicious to any collector as to its originality, lacking any proof to the contrary. The U.S. NAVY topstrap stamping would be believable as the revolver is in the correct SN range. And it would not be a U. S. Maritime Commission gun.

Some years ago I was offered a Remington Model 51 pistol with "USMC" stamped on it (I collected U. S.-made pocket pistols at that time). The seller wanted a handsome price for it, but of course he had only a story with absolutely no documentation showing that it was a genuine USMC-issued pistol. He got very angry with me when I expressed my doubts about its authenticity and walked away in a huff. Maybe he eventually found someone who would swallow his story.

 

[steelslaver]

Semper Fi, I would love to come across one of those so marked.

 

[richardw]

I neither claim nor imply to be an expert on such matters, but I can shed some light that others might verify.

The 38 Special Victory was standard issue to Navy and Marine Corps pilots in WWII. That was done to free up M1911 pistols for ground forces. The Navy and Maritime services are totally separate and were in WWII. The Depatmdnt of the Navy included only the Navy and Marine Corps It is inconceivable they weapon an ownership designation to the Navy ( meaning Dept of Navy) would indicate a weapon made for the Maritime Service. It is much more likely that USMC on such a revolver indicates it was part of an allotment for the Marines.

You might consider a call to the USMC Museum in Quantico, VA to find out the person who curates the weapons collection. I'd bet that he or she will be able give you the facts related to the pistol if they receive an email photo of the gun. The folks there are very accommodating of such requests.

If that fails and you PM me some very clear photos of the gun and it's markings, I would be happy to try to try to get an answer from the armorers at Quantico. I am certain they have historical reference to ever gun the Corps issued during its modern history. The best bet is the Museam curator.

By the way the Vicrtory was still carried Navy and Marine pilots in Nam. My platoon got the honorable duty to find, secure, and protect a downed Navy pilot just south of the DMZ in my unit AOP. Whe we reached hi he was in some brush with his 38 special in hand. I had no idea then that it was called a Victory model.

 

[Absalom]

.....
The 38 Special Victory was standard issue to Navy and Marine Corps pilots in WWII. That was done to free up M1911 pistols for ground forces....

A somewhat ironic addition to this point: while the Victorys were indeed initially meant as secondary arms filling in for the primary handgun, the 1911A1, they became a standard piece of equipment for aircrews to the point that by 1944 the Navy withdrew revolvers from non-aviation personnel and replaced those with 1911s, to ensure sufficient Victorys for aviators were available.

Also, pertaining to Naval and Marine aviators flying off carriers, as far as we know, they did not have personally issued sidearms, but were handed a revolver before a mission and had to turn it back in afterwards. Of course, this was almost certainly different for those Marine squadrons flying off front-line airstrips on islands retaken during the advance. But this is one reason why I approach Victory-plus-holster-and-story packages from the estates of former Navy pilots with a bit of scepticism.

 

[opoefc]

Kevcon, You need to letter your Victory. Any Victory model acquired in a So.Cal auction ( located a short distance from the source of 99% of fake Victory Models ) , with a USMC stamp is very suspect. As a side note, legend has it that genuine United States Maritime Commission Victory models are marked with decimal marks between the letters ( U.S.M.C. ) This is based on Victory Models found in the Arms Lockers of WW2 Liberty ships being scrapped at Benecia, CA., in the 1950s. Ed.

 

[Absalom]

.... legend has it that genuine United States Maritime Commission Victory models are marked with decimal marks between the letters ( U.S.M.C. ) This is based on Victory Models found in the Arms Lockers of WW2 Liberty ships being scrapped at Benecia, CA., in the 1950s. Ed.

That is very interesting. I hadn't heard about this before. The lettered U.S.M.C. guns I've owned and seen all had no stampings of any kind.

But a few marked guns have shown up here and in other forums over the past years which to my knowledge have not been authenticated or explained. See attached.

 

[KEN L]

Although I can't attest to the authenticity of the markings, what I can tell you is, that's one cool Victory model that I'd love to own. And I can also tell you it most likely shipped in September of 1942. Nice score!

 

[KEVCON]

Good morning S&W enthusiasts!

Thank you for your assistance in helping me determine if I have a fake USMC marked Victory or possibly an unicorn. I have received some good tips and I am following up on them. I will post updates as I get concrete information. I had to take some detail frame markings to assist these other sources with possibly filling in the back story of this particular Victory that I posses. Since there are so many helpful people on this forum I have decided to post those additional details.

I am curious were I can find what some of the proof stampings under the right side grip on the frame represent. Particularly the "D8", "J", "G" (or could that be "GC"?) and the "O". It looks like the grips match the frame....maybe? The grips appear to be marked 888 and the frame is 883...maybe the 3 punched out as an 8 or the marker got lazy?

Thanks again for your help and interest.

 

[murphydog]

The only Victory Models I've seen with definite proof stamps were some in the V400-500000 range, with a small P on the left upper rear frame just forward from and above the hammer.

 

[PALADIN85020]

Not all WWII USMC pilots used Victory models. In doing research on the Victories, I guessed that MOH recipient Joe Foss must have used one. Joe was known to me, and I have been privileged to have talked to him quite a number of times - he even autographed a copy of his autobiography for me.

It never pays to guess. Turns out Joe favored the good old Model 1911A1 for his personal gun in the cockpit. The Navy/Marines issued revolvers because it took only one hand to operate them - regulations for the 1911 series prescribed a loaded magazine but no round in the chamber - usually requiring two hands to make the gun ready to fire, and pilots needed at least one hand to control the aircraft.

Don't always say always, and don't ever say never.

John

 

[chiefdave]

The only Victory Models I've seen with definite proof stamps were some in the V400-500000 range, with a small P on the left upper rear frame just forward from and above the hammer.

I have one such marked Victory, V548xxx, that also has the flaming bomb forward of the lanyard loop. Probably a DSC guard gun but going to letter it anyway on the off chance it was shipped to somewhere of historical note. Have a 1911 shipped to the Adjutant General, State of New York in 1914, that was a surprise.

 

[Absalom]

The only Victory Models I've seen with definite proof stamps were some in the V400-500000 range, with a small P on the left upper rear frame just forward from and above the hammer.

Alan:
This isn't just a matter of "some". Pretty much all early military pre-Victorys and Victorys from a certain date on got the P proof on the butt. At a point in 1943/44 sometime, this moved to the triple P proof on the frame as you describe as well as underbarrel flat and cylinder face. From that time on, ALL Victorys, BSR or US version, military or DSC, received those three P proofs, which were applied by ordnance contractors at the factory. Of course, as always, some individual guns may show some variance.

 

[BibleronKJV]

I have Victory V419221 that letters to the U.S. Maritime Commission shipped Jan.13,1944 to Reading, PA. Gun has no military mkgs on topstrap but has the flaming bomb on butt. Also has the "P" on barrel, cylinder and top of left frame. Ron