Wadcutters were developed for target revolvers with LONG barrels

[KenTheHunter]

Hickock45 showed me that pocket pistols aren't any less accurate than longer barreled pistols. He had several to show and that guy has HUGE hands so the guns looked like something out of a bubble gum machine when he was holding them. He proceeded to ring his gong with them consistently. Somebody said, "That gong is REALLY big. I SAID I'd do good to hit the side of a barn at 80 yards with one of those peashooters.

No, usually smaller guns ARE just as accurate as their larger versions, but they are more difficult to shoot straight. Size, grip dimensions, short sight radius, increased recoil-all make the smaller gun more difficult to shoot accurately, at least for me.

 

[6string]

Another great article series (Three parts) on the 38 Special was published in Handloader Magazine in the early 80s. It was written by Ken Waters. It was very thorough!
Four test guns were used, a 2" snubby (Colt Detective, I think), 4" (Maybe a S&W 18?), a 6" (Colt Official Police), and an 8" (S&W 14, I believe).

There were specific issues dedicated to jacketed and lead loads, with tons of accuracy and velocity data.
I think many people following this thread would enjoy it!

 

[BE Mike]

The VERY low WC velocities we see today are not the velocities WCs got in target revolvers. Back in early 1970s I had a 38 Spl with an 8⅜" bbl. That was the target length.

Now that chronos are common I have a better idea what the velocities were with those long barrels back then. They were lower, but not anemic.

Have the WC powder charges changed since then?

With target shooting, accuracy is what matters most and to a lesser degree, mild recoil. I see a lot of folks post velocity stats, but no accuracy at significant distances. I guess that they have to try to justify those $500 chronographs, to themselves somehow!

 

[JimFr]

Another great article series (Three parts) on the 38 Special was published in Handloader Magazine in the early 80s. It was written by Ken Waters. It was very thorough!
Four test guns were used, a 2" snubby (Colt Detective, I think), 4" (Maybe a S&W 18?), a 6" (Colt Official Police), and an 8" (S&W 14, I believe).

There were specific issues dedicated to jacketed and lead loads, with tons of accuracy and velocity data.
I think many people following this thread would enjoy it!

I knew Ken personally, as we lived only a few miles apart.
We had a short discussion as to why S&W never made . . . .nor did anyone else . . . . .a "dedicated" revolver for target shooting, using a shorter cylinder and frame SPECIFICALLY for the 38 Special wadcutter!
We both agreed it would have made for a better target revolver.

 

[Lt.Donn]

My dad had the lubricator sizer and a Star and a Hollywood press. I remember the sound of the sizer spitting out cast bullets. Then a second star and eventually a shot shell reader too. All I could afford was a MEC shot shell reloader. He eventually sold the stars (I wasn't worthy) and stored the Hollywood at my house in NJ. Superstorm Sandy turned the Hollywood into an expensive hunk of rust. At least I got his Model 52 and a few revolvers.

"In the day" those Star loaders were the rage ..used ones are still desired

 

[Reloader Fred]

My dad had the lubricator sizer and a Star and a Hollywood press. I remember the sound of the sizer spitting out cast bullets. Then a second star and eventually a shot shell reader too. All I could afford was a MEC shot shell reloader. He eventually sold the stars (I wasn't worthy) and stored the Hollywood at my house in NJ. Superstorm Sandy turned the Hollywood into an expensive hunk of rust. At least I got his Model 52 and a few revolvers.

Now you're making me feel really old. I still have the Hollywood Senior press I bought used from one of my college professors in 1963 that got me started in reloading. I currently have nine Star Sizers, all set up for different bullets, with two Magma Master Casters to feed them. A number of years ago I bought a second Hollywood Senior, the tall one, for swaging bullets.

As a side note, John Nosler started reloading and swaging his original Partition bullets on a Hollywood Senior press. When Fred Huntington visited with him to see what he was doing with his new bullets, he sent him an RCBS Rockchucker after he got back home. The original Hollywood press is in a display case in the Nosler factory store in Bend, OR. It was donated back to the company from a neighbor of John Nosler's, who bought it at his yard sale many years ago.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[rwsmith]

No, usually smaller guns AIRE just as accurate as their larger versions, but they are more difficult to shoot straight. Size, grip dimensions, short sight radius, increased recoil-all make the smaller gun more difficult to shoot accurately, at least for me.

I think I said that.

 

[VinnieL59]

In my area back in the day an 8" barrel on a pistol meant that it was a pistol used for hunting or silhouette shooting. I tried a couple of S&W +8" barrels many years ago thinking they may help my scores, but alas they did not. My steadiness with a barrel over 6" long evaporated quickly. I was okay for a cylinder full, but that was about it. Forget a barrel over 6" long for any type of action shooting. There were some very nice PPC pistols made back in the 70's, but I could never afford them being a brand new cop with a family. Back then store bought .38 cal. W/C ammunition was the rule of the day for serious match shooting with reloads being relegated to practice. Things have come a long way since that time and I almost never shoot a revolver now, only semi-autos. Easier for me to shoot well and much easier to clean.

Of course back in the 70's and 80's law enforcement agencies were hand picking their top shooters to partake in regional pistol competitions for bragging rights. We even had a trophy cabinet in our front entryway to our district HQ where all the shooting awards were displayed from our team members. I stopped at HQ one morning and went in the public entrance only to discover all the awards had been tossed in the dumpster on orders from our main state headquarters. So in one simple directive all the efforts of many people past and present were done away with so we didn't appear overly aggressive to the public. Story has it someone came into our district HQ and saw the shooting trophies and filed a complaint with our state headquarters. The result was swift and sure. That was also about the same time when we could no longer obtain a box of practice ammo each month at no cost to us. The "special" revolvers issued to the pistol team members were also recalled and eventually sold off. Nothing good ever happens that fast! All very sad at the time.

Rick H.

That is sad. It's a shame the stuff wasn't relegated to an archive collection.

 

[MyTurn]

I think the wadcutters are still a pretty effective, soft shooting self defense load in a snubby although I know others will disagree.

 

[BE Mike]

I knew Ken personally, as we lived only a few miles apart.
We had a short discussion as to why S&W never made . . . .nor did anyone else . . . . .a "dedicated" revolver for target shooting, using a shorter cylinder and frame SPECIFICALLY for the 38 Special wadcutter!
We both agreed it would have made for a better target revolver.

This takes me back to memory lane:

 

[cmj8591]

I think the wadcutters are still a pretty effective, soft shooting self defense load in a snubby although I know others will disagree.

A lot of people seem to subscribe to that premise but the reality is that a wad cutter can not be depended upon to get enough penetration to get to where it has to to shut down an attacker. Especially if the path to the boiler room is impeded by clothing or heavy bone. That's why if you look back on the history of defensive handguns, the semi-wadcutter was developed. It was a compromise between the penetration of the round nose and the energy dump of the flat wadcutter. There are so many good choices for defensive bullets today that there really isn't a need to resort to a bullet that may or may not work.

 

[dbcolts]

The VERY low WC velocities we see today are not the velocities WCs got in target revolvers. Back in early 1970s I had a 38 Spl with an 8⅜" bbl. That was the target length.

Now that chronos are common I have a better idea what the velocities were with those long barrels back then. They were lower, but not anemic.

Have the WC powder charges changed since then?

OMG!!.....I ruined a perfectly good 1902 Colt .38 Military Model automatic pistol about 50 years ago. I always wanted an automatic that could shoot the .38 wadcutter AMU target round (a rimless version of the .38 Special round. Yes, I already had some of the AMU .38 ammunition that the Army Marksmanship Unit had developed for the .38 AMU Colt pistols they'd developed. I bought/traded for one of the 1902 Military Colts that was in good condition w/xlnt. bore. I rechambered it to .38 Spl. and modified the magazine to accept and feed the wadcutter round. Which could only hold and feed 5 rounds. Yes....the orig. Colt .38 Automatic round is semi-rimmed. I eventually had to make .38 AMU cartridges out of .38 Spl. cases. It shot kinda ok....but not worth keeping. and it got sold....for about $200.

 

[John_M52]

Now you're making me feel really old. I still have the Hollywood Senior press I bought used from one of my college professors in 1963 that got me started in reloading. I currently have nine Star Sizers, all set up for different bullets, with two Magma Master Casters to feed them. A number of years ago I bought a second Hollywood Senior, the tall one, for swaging bullets.

As a side note, John Nosler started reloading and swaging his original Partition bullets on a Hollywood Senior press. When Fred Huntington visited with him to see what he was doing with his new bullets, he sent him an RCBS Rockchucker after he got back home. The original Hollywood press is in a display case in the Nosler factory store in Bend, OR. It was donated back to the company from a neighbor of John Nosler's, who bought it at his yard sale many years ago.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Yes, my dad had a Hollywood that he used occasionally for rifle reloads but mainly for swaged bullets with gas checks from lead rope.

 

[Reloader Fred]

Yes, my dad had a Hollywood that he used occasionally for rifle reloads but mainly for swaged bullets with gas checks from lead rope.

I bought my tall Hollywood Senior for both swaging bullets and for loading .45-120 Sharps rounds. The 3.250" long case of the .45-120 doesn't fit in most presses, but the tall Hollywood was designed to load the .50 BMG and 20mm, so it has plenty of room. I don't load either of those rounds, but the .45-120 fits easily, with room to spare. It also swages bullets as well as my Corbin CSP-1 swaging press. The problem is finding the swaging dies. I have to make swaging punches on my mini lathe that will work in the Hollywood.

Hope this helps.

Fred