?Value on a N Mod #3 ?

[delcrossv]

HB's make sense with a .318 case throat but a .320 land diameter.
My question would be what modern case could be trimmed to fit the chamber but hold a .318 bullet?

 

[BMur]

Bullet and case selection

I went through my Ideal Historical listing again and found a couple molds listed under the 323 category which is strange but here they are. (Photo 1)

It also lists using the 32 Ideal case? Never seen one so I don't know.

You could size up a 32 long throat if you know how to anneal cases and use a case expander "safely".


Murph

 

[Oyeboteb]

HB's make sense with a .318 case throat but a .320 land diameter.
My question would be what modern case could be trimmed to fit the chamber but hold a .318 bullet?

.32-20 / .32 WCF Cases can be shortened, and their upper area expanded...base of .32-20 Case is a perfect fit, but .32-20 is a tapered body, ( and .32 - 44 is a straight no taper Case ) but once expanded, and fire formed, will likely be just dandy.

This is what I am about to be doing, soon as my expander Die gets here.

My own .32 - 44, the Cylinder Bores are .322, Barrel Groove-to-Groove is .322.

Bullets should be sized to match Cylinder Bores.

 

[BMur]

Black powder ERA

I'm amazed at the variances in bore dynamics posted on this thread for a Target Gun?
However, any Antique Firearm was manufactured in the Black powder ERA and that ERA was totally different than the smokeless ERA. This thread is just further proof of that.
These Target guns saw both ERAs so you must mic your specific gun and match bullet to bore. You can't rely on what someone else's Target gun mics at!
His may have been manufactured during the smokeless ERA and yours being a much earlier Black powder ERA gun might just have totally different bore dynamics. I'd bet on it!
Gotta do your own homework on this one.

Murph

 

[Oyeboteb]

I'm amazed at the variances in bore dynamics posted on this thread for a Target Gun?
However, any Antique Firearm was manufactured in the Black powder ERA and that ERA was totally different than the smokeless ERA. This thread is just further proof of that.
These Target guns saw both ERAs so you must mic your specific gun and match bullet to bore. You can't rely on what someone else's Target gun mics at!
His may have been manufactured during the smokeless ERA and yours being a much earlier Black powder ERA gun might just have totally different bore dynamics. I'd bet on it!
Gotta do your own homework on this one.

Murph

.218 Cylinder Bores and .218 Barrel's "Groove to Groove" actually might just be perfectly fine for a .32 - 44 using a .323 or .322 Bullet, now that I meditate on this some more -

So long as a normal ( and normally crimped ) Cartridge and Bullet will Chamber, the Bullet is of course smaller in diameter where it is out of the Case, than the portion of the Bullet which is in the Case, so, really, this would be just fine...

I was not thinking clearly when I mentioned that Bullets should be sized for the Cylinder Bores - this is true usually, or when one is shooting "Can of Beans" shape Wadcutters which have only one diameter to their entire length, and when these are loaded to hang out of the Case a ways, since if they are larger than Cylinder Bore size, they will not want to chamber.

Bullets smaller than Chamber diameter will promote 'Leading'.

But, Round Nose Bullets or Semi Wadcutters, seated normally, and crimped normally, as long as the Cartridge Chambers, the Bullets primary diameter, can be larger than cylinder Bore diameter, and all is well.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Just figured out, ".32 Winchester Self Loading" aka ".32 S. L." Brass would be a very nice candidate ( to be shortened ) for use in the .32 - 44 Revolvers.

 

[delcrossv]

Buffalo Arm$ was selling both reformed .32-44 S&W and .32 Ideal cases. Presently out of stock, but they do respond to phone calls. (got my .455 Mk1 brass that way).

.32WSL is in stock.

32 WSL Cases∗ - Reloadable Brass Cases & Hulls - Reloading Supplies - Buffalo Arms

 

[Oyeboteb]

Buffalo Arm$ was selling both reformed .32-44 S&W and .32 Ideal cases. Presently out of stock, but they do respond to phone calls. (got my .455 Mk1 brass that way).

.32WSL is in stock.

32 WSL Cases∗ - Reloadable Brass Cases & Hulls - Reloading Supplies - Buffalo Arms

Huh!

Good find!

I am very impressed that Buffalo Arms would go through the trouble to offer these, good for them!

( Image though of the erstwhile ".32 WSL" Case ,is an image of a .32-20 Case, so someone goofed in the image there...)

Do you yourself load for the .32 - 44?

 

[BMur]

Pricy though

Half the fun for me personally is to be able reload antique cartridges at a reduced cost. I prefer using loading Dies And Brass I already have on hand.

In this case though? I don't have any Dies that would size a case to match the original 32/44. So it's either use an alternate case that I have Dies for? Like the 32 Long? And use a case expander that I already have?

Or purchase new ( Reformed) 32 WSL cases which would also require Trimming and purchasing new loading Dies for that case. Sounds like a pricy proposition for an antique target gun that I Personally will rarely shoot.

I think I will use what I have since I honestly don't plan on shooting my 32/44 often. I wonder how much Dies are for the 32WSL?

****Also if you look closely at the Buffalo Arms listing? The 32WSL brass that they want .79 cent per shell? They are reformed from another caliber case.

Murph

 

[Oyeboteb]

Half the fun for me personally is to be able reload antique cartridges at a reduced cost. I prefer using loading Dies And Brass I already have on hand.

In this case though? I don't have any Dies that would size a case to match the original 32/44. So it's either use an alternate case that I have Dies for? Like the 32 Long? And use a case expander that I already have?

Or purchase new ( Reformed) 32 WSL cases which would also require Trimming and purchasing new loading Dies for that case. Sounds like a pricy proposition for an antique target gun that I Personally will rarely shoot.

I think I will use what I have since I honestly don't plan on shooting my 32/44 often. I wonder how much Dies are for the 32WSL?

****Also if you look closely at the Buffalo Arms listing? The 32WSL brass that they want .79 cent per shell? They are reformed from another caliber case.

Murph

.32 S&W Long is ten thousandths of an inch too small in diameter, so...dies for it would not work for .32 - 44.

The only Loading Die ( as such, vis a vie an ancillary expanding Die ) which one really needs I think, is a Seating Die, and this is likely fairly flexible, so long as it does not reduce the Case diameter, and I am still pondering what existing common-enough seating Die one can use for this...or, pondering on making one from some common enough smaller ID Seating Die like say '.32 - 20'.

I do not think these Cartridges need a crimp so long as one has some decent Neck tension. The Revolver is quite heavy, and the recoil of these would be very mild, so I doubt any Bullets would tend to creep forward on Recoil.

Shortening and using .32 - 20 Cases, one would need to have an expander Die to prepare the cases to accept the right diameter Bullets...since the .32 - 20 Case tapers somewhat, ( even below the neck-down area, the Body tapers, ) and will be too small for right diameter Bullets, if left 'as is' for having been merely shortened and not expanded.

It is possible that given the usual .321 Bullet diameter of the .32 WSL Cartridge, that the shortened Case might be just right 'as is', once shortened, since it is a slightly tapering case in its own way also as would be widening as one goes 'down'.Or it may need just a little expanding...if less than .32 - 20 would.

I'll find out once I have some to try!

 

[delcrossv]

Huh!


Do you yourself load for the .32 - 44?

I will as soon as I get a gun that chambers it.

I do find getting obsolete caliber guns working again very fascinating. The lack of available
.32 rim fire cartridges has kept me away from them for example.

 

[Oyeboteb]

I will as soon as I get a gun that chambers it.

I do find getting obsolete caliber guns working again very fascinating. The lack of available
.32 rim fire cartridges has kept me away from them for example.

Ahh! Happy Hunting!! - for a .32 - 44..! They are out there!

Center Fire, there is always hope..!

.32 and up Rim Fire Cartridges...not so much...Lol...or not in the same way, anyway.

One can re-load them, but it is a different Ballgame of course, even if likely fun and satisfying.

Home-made Priming Compounds are not all that hard to make, ( tap out the old 'dent' ) and there are some simple ( and less 'sensitive' ) working-man's versions using Chlorates, but one still is best to be very respectful of right care and cautions...especially so with the old Fulminating Mercury recipes.

I myself have not gone there, but I used to read about it.

Center Fire, and a few Revolvers using it to have fun with, are more than enough to keep me busy as it is...

.41 Rimfire, if I had more time, I'd re-Load for it though.

 

[model3sw]

Buffalo Arm$ was selling both reformed .32-44 S&W and .32 Ideal cases. Presently out of stock, but they do respond to phone calls. (got my .455 Mk1 brass that way).

.32WSL is in stock.

32 WSL Cases∗ - Reloadable Brass Cases & Hulls - Reloading Supplies - Buffalo Arms

both excellent choices. Thanks for the post. Several years back, preparing to load some .34-44 target rounds, I though ... why not have a case that is the same length as the cylinder ? It would make for a truer shot traveling that extra distance in the sleeve of the cylinder directly into the forcing cone instead of the bullet bouncing around that void area.

Naturally, it would need to be pressed into the case an equal distance from the base of the cartridge as the .32-44.

.32 Ideal seemed perfect but expensive as no one remake the brass for about 100 years.. the .32 WSL seemed a better choice but still not cheap and would need some re sizing.

Now I have to go check my .32-44 New Model 3 Targets. I could swear I had one that was bored clean through as it took a .32 Revolving Rifle Cartridge. Can't remember if it protruded out the end of the cylinder or not.

Does this make sense to you guys or is my OCD showing through of wanting to have the entire length of the cylinder lined to the very end.

On the .38-44 I once experimented with .38 special and .357 brass for the same reason. Just to see if it worked out to be practical and offer better accuracy.

I once thought i hit the jackpot when I purchased a case of mixed .32 S&W RIFLE and .38 S&W RIFLE rounds.

Come to find the word RIFLE used on the package was to circumvent additional taxes or fees and tariffs charged for handgun ammo which were higher than rifle ammo.

Can someone explain that better to me, the ammo packages (with revolver ammo) marked RIFLE ?

Thank you. Sal Raimondi

 

[H Richard]

I was thinking the word "Rifle" on the box indicated a hotter round only intended for rifle, and too hot for revolvers.

 

[Oyeboteb]

both excellent choices. Thanks for the post. Several years back, preparing to load some .34-44 target rounds, I though ... why not have a case that is the same length as the cylinder ? It would make for a truer shot traveling that extra distance in the sleeve of the cylinder directly into the forcing cone instead of the bullet bouncing around that void area.

Naturally, it would need to be pressed into the case an equal distance from the base of the cartridge as the .32-44.

.32 Ideal seemed perfect but expensive as no one remake the brass for about 100 years.. the .32 WSL seemed a better choice but still not cheap and would need some re sizing.

Now I have to go check my .32-44 New Model 3 Targets. I could swear I had one that was bored clean through as it took a .32 Revolving Rifle Cartridge. Can't remember if it protruded out the end of the cylinder or not.

Does this make sense to you guys or is my OCD showing through of wanting to have the entire length of the cylinder lined to the very end.

On the .38-44 I once experimented with .38 special and .357 brass for the same reason. Just to see if it worked out to be practical and offer better accuracy.

I once thought i hit the jackpot when I purchased a case of mixed .32 S&W RIFLE and .38 S&W RIFLE rounds.

Come to find the word RIFLE used on the package was to circumvent additional taxes or fees and tariffs charged for handgun ammo which were higher than rifle ammo.

Can someone explain that better to me, the ammo packages (with revolver ammo) marked RIFLE ?

Thank you. Sal Raimondi

.32 Revolving Rifle Cartridges were the length of the usual 44 Russian Cylinder, as the Revolving Rifle was merely a New Model 3 Revolver with an extra long Barrel and Shoulder Stock, and all Cylinders were same length as .44 Russian until much later when the Frame and Cylinders were lengthened to oblige .44-40 and or .38-40 Winchester Cartridges.

So, the .32 RR Cartridges were same length as any New Model 3 Cylinder of that time period.

Please find your .32 - 44 and see if it is chambered for the full cylinder length Cartridge, or for the usual shorter .32 - 44 Cartridge?

I am sure that some New Model 3 Targets would have been chambered for the .32 Revolving Rifle Cartridge, but this is pending a definite affirmation.

 

[delcrossv]

\

Please find your .32 - 44 and see if it is chambered for the full cylinder length Cartridge, or for the usual shorter .32 - 44 Cartridge?

I am sure that some New Model 3 Targets would have been chambered for the .32 Revolving Rifle Cartridge, but this is pending a definite affirmation.

I'd be interested in seeing that too, Sal.

 

[BMur]

Additional tax levied on Pistol rounds

This is often misinterpreted with old antique boxed ammunition. First and foremost the box must have an original label with an additional label pasted over the intended pistol cartridges. This additional label marked rifle cartridges. This was to circumvent taxes that were levied on pistol cartridges that were shipped into some southern states.
If the label is original and says rifle cartridges that's not applicable to this attempt to circumvent the southern state taxes. It must be a "pasted over" Pistol round label.

Some folks think that any Rifle rounds are part of this tax dodging? As an example the 38 Long "rifle rounds" are part of this? But they are not. Those ARE rifle rounds.
Only if there is a pasted over label As seen in the attached article.

Murph

 

[Oyeboteb]

Just a fun image I found on line somewhere some while ago...

Wish we all had a few boxes of these to admire and study..!

Hosted on Fotki

 

[BMur]

32-44 Cartridge

Let me see if I'm getting this right? Ideal identifies the 32-44 cartridge both the bullet and the case as being the same for the Revolving rifle. I have never seen a cylinder for a Revolving rifle. Does that cylinder have case stops like the 32/44 Target? I think Ed mentioned that it did not? It did chamber the same Target Round though? According to Ideal it did. That being said, the below photo therefore depicts not only the Revolving Rifle bullet but qualifies as a "Target Bullet" for the 32/44 Target New Model 3 as well.

I noticed also that the early UMC cartridge box label states "Target Revolver" for 50 yards. That should tell us something about expected accuracy at respectable distances. Pattern shooting with open sights with a Revolver at 50 yards is saying something.

Murph

 

[Oyeboteb]

Let me see if I'm getting this right? Ideal identifies the 32-44 cartridge both the bullet and the case as being the same for the Revolving rifle. I have never seen a cylinder for a Revolving rifle. Does that cylinder have case stops like the 32/44 Target? I think Ed mentioned that it did not? It did chamber the same Target Round though? According to Ideal it did. That being said, the below photo therefore depicts not only the Revolving Rifle bullet but qualifies as a "Target Bullet" for the 32/44 Target New Model 3 as well.

I noticed also that the early UMC cartridge box label states "Target Revolver" for 50 yards. That should tell us something about expected accuracy at respectable distances. Pattern shooting with open sights with a Revolver at 50 yards is saying something.

Murph

Nice Mold!!

As far as I gather, the Cylinders of the Revolving Rifle were 'bored straight through' for use with Cartridges that were the full length of the Cylinder, and the Cylinders were same as for the 'New Model 3' at that time.

So, the .320 RR was basically .32 Caliber version of the later .38 - 44 for the Cartridge Case being full Cylinder Length and the Bullet being entirely in the cartridge Case.

Here is what the .320 RR Cartridges looked or look like -

Hosted on Fotki

There is no reason I can think of why a New Model 3 Target Revolver may not have been ordered for use with the .320 RR Cartridges, but we'll just have to wait till someone posts about having one, or knowing about one, to know for sure.