?Value on a N Mod #3 ?

[H Richard]

I may have an opportunity to buy a New Mod #3 .32 Target. It is rough, maybe 10% finish left. But, it is surprisingly tight and the chambers and bore are shiny. A .32 Long will chamber, so since these were made up until 1910 it might be possible for that chambering?

I have no idea what these may value at, and the SCSW4 doesn't seem to be much help. I know there weren't large amounts made in this chambering or as a Target, but would the value be a few hundred or a couple thousand? Sorry, I can't get pictures. Just looking for a ballpark range. Thanks

 

[delcrossv]

New model 3 top break? Seems like ~1000. Might wanna try on the antiques forum. Ithink it's a .32 S&W- not Long.

 

[opoefc]

Caliber should be .32/44 S&W Target if the gun is one of that model. ( probably has a 4 digit serial number) Very similar to the .32 Long, but a longer case where the bullet sits inside the mouth of the case. Very hard to come by original .32/44 ammo but if you want to shoot the gun, .32 S&W long or .32 S&W will work. It's also possible the gun is a New Model 3 in the target version and special ordered in .32 Long, or .32 S&W, caliber. So, H Richard, which S&W are you looking at ? Ed.

 

[H Richard]

Ed See your email of this morning.

 

[glowe]

So why no pictures or serial number?? Is the cylinder bored through? The 32-44 and 38-44 Target are very similar and take standard .314 and .360 bullets respectively. As Ed states, the bullet was loaded fully loaded into the case, making the chamber slightly larger than a standard 32 or 38 S&W. The case was the length of the cylinder. I do not have a 32-44 in my collection, but that cartridge should look like the 38-44 I reload and shoot below. Original loads would have used a round-nosed bullet or a round ball in gallery loads.

 

[Oyeboteb]

My own 'New Model 3' in '.32 - 44', the Cylinder is bored with a small 'step', to accept a normally Seated Bullet which extends out from the Cartridge Case, and the Cylinder Bores and Barrel's "Groove-to-Groove" are .322.

I gather there were two different length .322 Diameter Bullet '.32 - 44' Cartridges ( and with them, their respective Cylinder Chamber details ), one Cartridge being the full length of Cylinder, where the projectile was/is seated entirely inside the Cartridge case, and, the other, as mine is, where the Cartridge is of a conventional kind, and that both of these Cartridges were of the same diameter, and Barrel's Groove-to-Groove, likewise, taking the same .322-ish diameter Bullets.

With this, it also does seem one could Order a New Model 3' chambered for .32 S&W Long, or maybe even .32 S & W, both of which are of a smaller .312 ish diameter Bullet and smaller diameter ( and shorter to much shorter ) Cartridge Case.

Image showing some of the 'full length' .32 - 44 Cartridges -

Hosted on Fotki


Image looking in to the rear of the Cylinder of my 'New Model 3' .32 - 44, where, you can see the little 'step'.

Hosted on Fotki


So, in summary, so far as I gather, the 'New Model 3' when chambered in "32" could have any of four possible different Cartridge Chamberings.

 

[glowe]

32 Long was not mentioned by Roy as a caliber for this model, but one might think a very late example could have been chambered that way, BUT if an early serial number, 32 Long was not around until 1896?? I suppose that someone could have had it re-chambered in 32 Long?

 

[Oyeboteb]

32 Long was not mentioned by Roy as a caliber for this model, but one might think a very late example could have been chambered that way, BUT if an early serial number, 32 Long was not around until 1896?? I suppose that someone could have had it re-chambered in 32 Long?

I can not say I have seen one ( a New Model 3 in .32 S&W or in .32 S&W Long ) only that I have accepted provisionally that those Chamberings could be ordered if one wanted...and I have heard it said here on the forum somewhere along the line, that they were understood by some to have existed.

Oh! Just remembered! Someone had one on Facebook in an S & W Group there, which he was confident was .32 S&W Long. I lost track of that conversation though.

Of course, a person could mistake either ( ".322 / .323" ) .38 - 44 Chambering, at-a-glance, or at a naive glance, for being .32 S&W / .32 S&W Long.

Now, if someone were to look at mine, and chamber some .32 S&W Long Cartridges, they might suppose it to be .32 Long, but, it is not...and the .32 S&W Long Cartridges are a little loose, a little too small in diameter, and a little too short in length.

 

[BMur]

Caliber?

You would think if it was an odd caliber that it would be caliber stamped? 32 S&W would be a special order For sure and pretty rare.
Smith & Wesson top breaks are known for having case stops in the chambers. Only exception I can think of is the Winchester rifle calibers.

So "if" it was a special order 32 S&W it should have case stops in the chambers that would match the length of the intended caliber.

Big difference in case length between the 32/44 and the 32 S&W Long or short. You should be able to clearly see the case stops in the chambers. If they are way towards the front? It's a 32/44. If more towards the middle or back? You have yourself a special order target and very rare.

Murph

 

[model3sw]

I may have an opportunity to buy a New Mod #3 .32 Target. It is rough, maybe 10% finish left. But, it is surprisingly tight and the chambers and bore are shiny. A .32 Long will chamber, so since these were made up until 1910 it might be possible for that cambering?

I have no idea what these may value at, and the SCSW4 doesn't seem to be much help. I know there weren't large amounts made in this chambering or as a Target, but would the value be a few hundred or a couple thousand? Sorry, I can't get pictures. Just looking for a ballpark range. Thanks

Be careful here. Check Phillip Sharpe on Handloading. .32 S&W long carries a .311-.312" width bullet whereas a .32-44 New model 3 carries an actual .32 Caliber in .323"caliber so I cannot see how that statement could be factual.

Finish ... baaah ! For a shooter as long as the mechanical condition is most important, safety-wise.

The New Model 3 is NOT for the average gunsmith to repair. You need so seek and find someone who specializes in the New Model 3s, yours truly included.

Parts can cost a small fortune and there are no actual fit replacement while I have heard of some mechanics that alter replacement parts from the repro Model3s .e.g.Navy Arms, etc. I cannot attest to any of that being factual. I use only original S&W parts.

Going back to the start, NEVER buy a New Model 3 unless it has been examined by a knowledgeable mechanic.

At the condition / blue coverage you mention, I expect there to be a bit more wrong with it than just missing some blue.

Proceed with caution. Save to buy one in better condition rather than a "fixer-upper" here.

Best Regards, Sal Raimondi

 

[Oyeboteb]

I may have an opportunity to buy a New Mod #3 .32 Target. It is rough, maybe 10% finish left. But, it is surprisingly tight and the chambers and bore are shiny. A .32 Long will chamber, so since these were made up until 1910 it might be possible for that chambering?

I have no idea what these may value at, and the SCSW4 doesn't seem to be much help. I know there weren't large amounts made in this chambering or as a Target, but would the value be a few hundred or a couple thousand? Sorry, I can't get pictures. Just looking for a ballpark range. Thanks

Hi H Richard,

Well?

We are all on the edge of our Seat here!

What's the update?

 

[H Richard]

I'm better armed with information now, but auction isn't for another month. The value is above where I feel comfortable buying, but I will be actively bidding when the time comes, keeping fingers crossed.

 

[Oyeboteb]

I'm better armed with information now, but auction isn't for another month. The value is above where I feel comfortable buying, but I will be actively bidding when the time comes, keeping fingers crossed.

Ahhhh...if you can go see it again, see if there is a step in the Cylinder Chambers, and if allowed, try an empty .32 S&W Long Cartridge Case, and see if there is some wiggle room laterally, or not...and see if it goes in all the way or goes in only to .32 S&W ( short ) length.

This will tell you a lot then, every which way.

I do not really have much useful clue about value for these, since sellers have wide ranging conditions offered ( when they do come up ) for prices which usually make little or no sense at all.

I was lucky getting mine, as no one else bid, and starting bid was very comfortable.

Otherwise, even the Service configuration ( non Target ) New Model 3s, I have seen minty ones sell for under 2 grand, and utter worthless beat and bad bore, worn out timing ones being offered for twice that, if I maybe did not follow up to see if any one bid or bit.

Welcome to the wonderful world of old Guns..! Lol...

 

[model3sw]

Gents, I'm sure you all know that because of age and illness, the majority of my S&W & Colt collection is being sold off gradually. No auctions.

I have several New Model 3 shooters, like 3 in 32-44 a few in .38-44 and several in .44 Russian that would not hemorrhage money to own. Additionally you know EXACTLY what you're getting.

Then again, if you like New Model 3s in the condition that realistically require you to hemorrhage $$, well, I have those, too. Including a 2nd model Australian (1 of 3 known to remain),

AND ... a New Model 3 Target in .45 S&W Schofield which is the only one known to exist since Robert Neal's went missing about 20 years ago. (Not missing ... he sold it but no one knows who purchased it). A photo of Robert Neal's is in Neal & Jinks.

Also have loads of parts and other such for the American 1st issue , 2nd issue, Russians 1, 2, 3, New model 3, Schofields,etc.

 

[H Richard]

When I did see the item, it did have a slight step in the chamber, and I had a .32 Long round with me and it slid right into the chamber as if it was made for it. I did not have any measurement tools with me to check bore or throats. It was originally presented to me to be a 38 caliber, but the one picture I saw didn't look right which prompted me to have a couple rounds of different calibers in my pocket when I went to see it. I have been reasonably familiar with #1's and #1 1/2's, but not #2's or #3's. I'm in that part of my life where I have been selling off a number of my collection, but still have the urge to add something different if it could be obtained for a reasonable price.

 

[glowe]

Here is the rub for it being a factory 32 Long . . . is it an early or late gun? If early, I could not have left the factory in a caliber that did not exist when the gun was built???

I always assumed that the 32-44 would have been made the same as the 38-44, full length of the cylinder, but have never found any details. Come to find out 32-44 that was mentioned above, shows up in an old S&W catalog. The 1900 S&W catalog shows clearly that the 32-44 is a shorter round than the 38-44, therefore requiring a stepped chamber in order to achieve accuracy for this round. The standard nomenclature used in black powder loads do not apply with this caliber or the 38-44, since there would be no way to get 44 grains of BP in the case, but rather the 44 referred to the gun, 44 Single Action.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Here is the rub for it being a factory 32 Long . . . is it an early or late gun? If early, I could not have left the factory in a caliber that did not exist when the gun was built???

I always assumed that the 32-44 would have been made the same as the 38-44, full length of the cylinder, but have never found any details. Come to find out 32-44 that was mentioned above, shows up in an old S&W catalog. The 1900 S&W catalog shows clearly that the 32-44 is a shorter round than the 38-44, therefore requiring a stepped chamber in order to achieve accuracy for this round. The standard nomenclature used in black powder loads do not apply with this caliber or the 38-44, since there would be no way to get 44 grains of BP in the case, but rather the 44 referred to the gun, 44 Single Action.

Please see my images above - Post No. 6 -

I posted an image showing the .32 - 44 Cartridges which are the full Cylinder Length version ( for the .44 Russian Length Cylinder )...same length as the 'full length' .38 - 44 Cartridges ( which also came in a shorter version at least as far as period info of the time indicated in Cartridge illustrations-descriptions).

These 'full length' .32 - 44 Cartridges are too long of course for my .32 - 44 New Model 3, as mine takes the shorter version, and my Cylinder chambers 'step' to the Cylinder Bore.

Both the .32 - 44 and the .38 - 44 each had the full length version of the Cartridge, or, the shorter, Stepped-Cylinder Chamber version of the Cartridge.

Just bought a big, THICK circa 1904 Book which has tons of info about Cartridges and Arms of the time, but I have not had a chance to look at it yet, will look soon, and I'll post any illustrations or other info as apply to these Cartridges.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Gents, I'm sure you all know that because of age and illness, the majority of my S&W & Colt collection is being sold off gradually. No auctions.

I have several New Model 3 shooters, like 3 in 32-44 a few in .38-44 and several in .44 Russian that would not hemorrhage money to own. Additionally you know EXACTLY what you're getting.

Then again, if you like New Model 3s in the condition that realistically require you to hemorrhage $$, well, I have those, too. Including a 2nd model Australian (1 of 3 known to remain),

AND ... a New Model 3 Target in .45 S&W Schofield which is the only one known to exist since Robert Neal's went missing about 20 years ago. (Not missing ... he sold it but no one knows who purchased it). A photo of Robert Neal's is in Neal & Jinks.

Also have loads of parts and other such for the American 1st issue , 2nd issue, Russians 1, 2, 3, New model 3, Schofields,etc.

Please check your private messages here at the forum!

Thanks!

Oye

 

[glowe]

Could they be 320, since they are not stamped? I can guess that if S&W made a full length case in 32-44, they would have placed it in their catalog?? I am just supposing here, but am wondering if there was only one 32-44 cartridge and that was the shorter one? Your unstamped cartridges could maybe be 320??? I am not finding comparisons and differences in the two calibers? I have an old 1881US Cartridge Catalog, but the do not list any of these target cartridges. Barnes book does not list either caliber target rounds either??

International Ammunition Association lists only a short 32-44 Target round.

.32-44 S&W/Target
bullet Dia .318 - .324
rim Dia .406 - .411
case length .967 - .980

Also, the only images that I can find on an Internet search show a short case 32-44 only. Here is one link to a closed auction.

SoldUSA - One UMC .32-44 S&W Target Cartridge

 

[Oyeboteb]

Could they be 320, since they are not stamped? I can guess that if S&W made a full length case in 32-44, they would have placed it in their catalog?? I am just supposing here, but am wondering if there was only one 32-44 cartridge and that was the shorter one? Your unstamped cartridges could maybe be 320??? I am not finding comparisons and differences in the two calibers? I have an old 1881US Cartridge Catalog, but the do not list any of these target cartridges. Barnes book does not list either caliber target rounds either??

International Ammunition Association lists only a short 32-44 Target round.

.32-44 S&W/Target
bullet Dia .318 - .324
rim Dia .406 - .411
case length .967 - .980

Also, the only images that I can find on an Internet search show a short case 32-44 only. Here is one link to a closed auction.

SoldUSA - One UMC .32-44 S&W Target Cartridge

Good question!

Let's see if we can find Cartridge Data for the .320 'Revolving Rifle' and go from there.

I may have been complaisant - Seller I got my little hand full from said they were ".32 - 44" ( as such ), but, may be they are actually "320"s for the 'Revolving Rifle' that was based on the New Model 3.

1881 would be too early I think for any mentions of .38 - 44 or .32 - 44, as they did not come about for some while, and I htink that around ten years had gone by from the introduction of the New Model 3, till they did come about, about from the requests of some of the more prominent Target Shooters of the Day, who wanted a little lighter Cartridge than the erstwhile .44 Russian...and, I am not sure when that was, other than late or very late 1880s I t-h-i-n-k.

I just double checked my little Gaggle of "32" Cartridges, and the Cartridge Body is the same length as my Head Stamp "38 -44" Cartridges.

This is part of what had encouraged me to suppose the ".32 - 44" had full Cylinder Length ( Cylinder being .44 Russian length ) as well as, the short Cartridge.

I have seen images of .38 - 44 Cartridges which also were shorter than cylinder length, even though they had their Bullets inside the Case, the Cylinder Chamber would have been stepped, for their being shorter, as well as one could have loaded the shorter ones to have the Bullet seated in a conventional way if one wanted to...since the stepped Cylinder Chamber / Bore would accept this.