?Value on a N Mod #3 ?

[BMur]

Chamber case stops

See that? I mean it doesn't make sense to me. The Revolving rifle rounds case length is WAY too long to chamber in the New Model 3 Target 32/44. It would obviously "HIT" the case stops and not chamber fully into the cylinder.

Reason being the bullet diameter and selection is identical. Both are seated deeply into the case so it won't go into the Target cylinder. NO WAY.

You can also plainly see from the Antique UMC cartridge box that the "TARGET" 32-44 case is much shorter than the Revolving Rifle case. What a mess.

The bullets are definitely the same diameter though. So they would both be in the neighborhood of .320. Just a huge difference in the case length for sure.

I honestly don't know what the purpose would be in creating such a difference in case length for the same caliber?

The case stops are definitely there to improve accuracy for the Pistol but the Revolving Rifle is basically the same as the Target 32/44, only having a longer barrel.

So, basically the .320 Revolving Rifle and the 32/44 Target pistol are "identical" in both caliber and case diameter. Only the "case length" is different. That is why the Ideal field loader has an adjustable die to load either length case by adjusting the depth of the die on the field loader.

Simple as that. SAME/SAME....just a different case length. So you could shoot the 32/44 target round in the .320 Revolving Rifle. It would represent a "Short" round and the .320 round would be a "Long" round.

Murph

 

[Oyeboteb]

See that? I mean it doesn't make sense to me. The Revolving rifle rounds case length is WAY too long to chamber in the New Model 3 Target 32/44. It would obviously "HIT" the case stops and not chamber fully into the cylinder.

Reason being the bullet diameter and selection is identical. Both are seated deeply into the case so it won't go into the Target cylinder. NO WAY.

You can also plainly see from the Antique UMC cartridge box that the "TARGET" 32-44 case is much shorter than the Revolving Rifle case. What a mess.

The bullets are definitely the same diameter though. So they would both be in the neighborhood of .320. Just a huge difference in the case length for sure.

I honestly don't know what the purpose would be in creating such a difference in case length for the same caliber?

The case stops are definitely there to improve accuracy for the Pistol but the Revolving Rifle is basically the same as the Target 32/44, only having a longer barrel.

So, basically the .320 Revolving Rifle and the 32/44 Target pistol are "identical" in both caliber and case diameter. Only the "case length" is different. That is why the Ideal field loader has an adjustable die to load either length case by adjusting the depth of the die on the field loader.

Simple as that. SAME/SAME....just a different case length. So you could shoot the 32/44 target round in the .320 Revolving Rifle. It would represent a "Short" round and the .320 round would be a "Long" round.

Murph

We are both saying the same thing -

.32 - 44 Cartridges fit a stepped Cylinder, and were shorter than the .320 RR, Cartridges who's Cartridge Case was the full length of the Cyliner.

.32 - 44 were shorter than the .38 - 44 Cartridges, which were same length as the .320 RR Cartridges.

.320 RR and .38 - 44 Cartridges were the same length.

What I have said though, is, given that the Revolving Rifle was simply a longer Barrel "New Model 3" with a shoulder Stock, which had the .44 Russian length Cylinder, there is no reason I can imagine why some 'New Model 3' Target Revolvers would not have been made chambering the .320 Cartridge, since all that would be needed was to merely have an erstwhile RR Cylinder in to the .32 - 44 Target Pistol with no other changes needed at all...

 

[BMur]

Primative Bullet designs

I hear what you are saying and it's possible.

It's just that what's sticking in my mind is the ERA that these target guns were manufactured. The earlier bullets were primitive in design and did not compliment accuracy "UNLESS" there was a case stop milled in each chamber of the revolver cylinder.

Reason being that the skirt of the early target bullets was too short and would cause the bullet to enter the forcing cone off center unless there was a case stop milled in the chamber to allow the bullet to enter true to centerline. That was the theory anyway that did work.

As bullet designs improved the "need" for the case stop really went away because the bullet skirt was much longer and stabilized the bullet as it entered the forcing cone. See photo of earlier bullets on the left and later on the right for the same caliber and same gun. The common denominator is the obvious increase in skirt length. This is "ONLY" in reference to revolvers. Not Semi-Autos. Different application.

So finding a Target 32-44 pistol without case stops in my opinion would be defeating the "TARGET" purpose of the gun. "ONLY" during the early period that they were manufactured (Assembled and shipped) 1887 to Pre-1910ish. Any shipped after that date may not have case stops.

If you were to find one without the case stops? In my opinion it would be a very late manufacture (ship date)....Like 1910 or later when new bullet designs would have allowed the elimination of the case stop without negatively impacting accuracy.

The Revolving Rifle really is a horse of a different color because technically it's not a revolver because of the much longer barrel length and how that applies to bullet dynamics. A long barrel allows the bullet to stabilize as it passes through the rifle length barrel for longer range accuracy so there is no need for case stops. Totally different (rifle)twist rate and bullet dynamics.

So if you were to remove the case stops in the earlier Target 32-44 and basically bore it straight through? It would not perform well at 50 yards given the use of the "original" primitive bullet types. Later bullets? NO problem. It really is all about bullet type when it comes to "bottom line" accuracy.

Murph

 

[mmaher94087]

I guess that I'm missing something here. The .32-44 cylinder with the case stops essentially makes the bullet transition between the cartridge case and the forcing cone via a smoothbore that keeps the bullet centered with the barrel. If one were to shoot a .32-44 cartridge in a RR cylinder then the bullet has to jump from the .980 +/- case to the barrel forcing cone unsupported.

I agree that a factory, .320 RR cartridge in a NM#3 revolver might be possible. I would suspect that the .320 RR cylinder serial number might not match but that's just my suspicious nature. As with anything S&W; never say never. In 50+ years of collecting I have never seen one.

 

[Oyeboteb]

I guess that I'm missing something here. The .32-44 cylinder with the case stops essentially makes the bullet transition between the cartridge case and the forcing cone via a smoothbore that keeps the bullet centered with the barrel. If one were to shoot a .32-44 cartridge in a RR cylinder then the bullet has to jump from the .980 +/- case to the barrel forcing cone unsupported.

I agree that a factory, .320 RR cartridge in a NM#3 revolver might be possible. I would suspect that the .320 RR cylinder serial number might not match but that's just my suspicious nature. As with anything S&W; never say never. In 50+ years of collecting I have never seen one.

My meaning was not intended to be suggesting that a private person would switch Cylinders...even if of course, yes, one could.

My intended meaning anyway, the meaning I did mean, was and is that I am sure that one could have Ordered a 'New Model 3' Target Revolver, from S & W, chambered for the .32 RR Cartridge.

Serial Number would be assigned in the normal way then and be 'matching'.

 

[mmaher94087]

"..one could.." I agree 100% but as stated, I've never encountered one. I have flipped over many stones looking for the obscure or very rare but I haven't seen one.. yet. I'm a cynic but I'm always hopeful too.

 

[BMur]

Broad subject

It's a broad subject with limited resources because these guns are so rare. Add to that the fact that they saw both the Black powder Era and early Smokeless and you have yourself a huge mess.

I think its very possible that a late shipped target 32/44 could have a bored through cylinder lacking case stops. Designed to shoot either case and perhaps even the 32 Ideal cartridge with more modern bullet designs and perhaps a smokeless load. We would need to examine the latest shipped gun available to prove it. I don't know enough about shipping dates for these but if they were shipped after 1907? Then smokeless was applicable for sure.

Shooting the 32/44 in the Revolving rifle can be compared to shooting a 22 short in a 22 Long rifle....It would function perfectly due to the rifle having a reduced twist rate and much higher bullet speed. The Gap in the chamber would be a non issue for a rifle.

Target pistols are totally different They suffer from having much faster twist rates, shorter barrels and lower bullet speeds that required the case stops on "earlier guns".

Someone also brought up the subject of "Why didn't they just use the .320 revolving rifle case in the 32/44 target pistol to begin with? Well, the reality is that when the target pistol was introduced? It was still deep in the Black powder ERA so bullet speed was limited big time in pistols. Plus a machined case stop is an absolute where as a case length was not during that ERA. If you study cartridges in the Black powder ERA? Every firm was on their own page. UMC compared to Winchester compared to U.S. Cartridge Co, compared to Peters, etc? No two were alike. So case lengths would vary which would screw up your accuracy in a target pistol big time if it had a bored through cylinder without case stops.

Murph

 

[Monk64]

just came across this forum, thankfully,
would you have a lead on an extractor cam for a 32-44 with a 3 digit serial number???
Thanks