Victory Markings

[RevolverJockey]

I have a chance to pick up a Victory, but before I come up with an offer, I have a few questions about markings. These are not the markings or format I am used to seeing and was hoping someone here could shed some light. I have read what is in Neal and Jinks and History of SW and markings really are not addressed. I have never purchased a Victory Model.

First, the "V" is on the right side of the lanyard, I have always seen them on the left.

There is also a light "S" on the left side of the lanyard and no ordnance marking on the frame.

Topstrap is marked "U.S. Navy" but again no ordnance marking or GHD or other inspector markings. A "P" is on the frame to the right of the recoil shield above the cylinder release.

The "P" marking also appears in the barrel flat with the serial number, but no "S".

"S" on the sideplate which I assume is for the improved drop safety, but the SN range makes it too early to be SV mid production gun.

Cylinder face in addition to the "V" and SN contains a small "P" the size of the SN and a much larger "R"

Under the crane there are assembly numbers "42049" on the crane and yoke and the letters "P" and "R" on the yoke and "R" on the crane. Again with the larger "R"s.

There was way too much flash in the pictures the gun is dark almost black bead blasted, not rust or drag line. Finish is rough with a bit of tooling marks but consistent throughout all parts. Hammer and trigger are case hardened. There is crude file marks on the front sight but they have been finished over with the same finish as the entire gun. Is it possible this gun was arsenal rebuilt or sent back to Smith to have the new drop safety installed? As this is not my revolver, I cannot remove the side plate to see what safety it has in it. This Victory is currently in a private collection (a good friend) and is only being offered up for sale to me because of my Navy service. I would like to make a fair and informed offer. Any information that can be provided would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance,
Lee

 

[Cyrano]

Now you made me get out my Navy and have a look at it.

Mine has the V and the serial nuymber on the same side of the butt, just like yours. Mine's SN 137XXX, a little earlier than yours.

Mine does not have the S on the butt or on the frame, as yours does. Mine has the old style safety.

Mine doesn't have a P on it anywhere: on the frame, under the barrel or on the cylinder. Under the barrel, there's almost a 1/2 inch space between the V and the serial number.

Mine doesn't have a P or an R on the back of the cylinder, but it does have an S.

I don't know what to make of the differences, perhaps someone who knows what they're talking about will explain it all

 

[RevolverJockey]

Now you made me get out my Navy and have a look at it.

Mine has the V and the serial nuymber on the same side of the butt, just like yours. Mine's SN 137XXX, a little earlier than yours.

Mine does not have the S on the butt or on the frame, as yours does. Mine has the old style safety.

Mine doesn't have a P on it anywhere: on the frame, under the barrel or on the cylinder. Under the barrel, there's almost a 1/2 inch space between the V and the serial number.

Mine doesn't have a P or an R on the back of the cylinder, but it does have an S.

I don't know what to make of the differences, perhaps someone who knows what they're talking about will explain it all

The more I read - up to page 7 of "Victory and Navy" search as of this writing, the "S" is for the updated safety, but it looks machine done and not hand stamped. The "P" is a proof marking of some sort, but everything I am reading says that started at around V400,000. I know there is some inconsistency to markings, but would make this Proof marking years off. I can't see if the gun was rearsenaled for the sideplate and drop safety upgrade they would have proofed the gun at that time assuming it was done post V400,000. I was also unaware that the Proof testing was done on the Navys - I thought that was just an Army thing. So much to learn, but I do want to make an offer on this one.
Lee

 

[ordnanceguy]

Hello Lee:

You ask about an interesting Victory. Your good pics and the complete serial number allow for a better understanding of the gun. I'll offer the following comments.

This revolver was a direct purchase by the US Navy from S&W, as distinguished from the later contracts that were administered by the Army for the Navy. It likely shipped from the factory when new in December, 1942, based upon the information in the Victory Model Database which is administered by my pal LWCmdr45 and me. When originally shipped the revolver had only the V serial prefix and no P-proof markings. The US Navy marking on the top strap was there as well.

This revolver has undergone the modification with the new safety hammer block. This work was done at the S&W factory. As you surmised when the work was completed it was marked with the S on the butt and the side plate to signify this modification. The reason that the S on the butt is separated from the V is because there was not enough room on the serial side of the lanyard ring to add the new S. The "new" serial is now SV189804.

The revolver also underwent proof testing during the modification process. The 3 P-proof markings were added to signify the passing of this test and to conform with the established practice at the time of the modification. (BTW, this work was most likely done in 1945.) The Victory Database includes several other examples of Navy guns similar to this example that underwent the modification and had the P-proof markings applied.

I can't offer you any advice on values but if I had the chance to buy it I would do so.

I hope that this information is helpful to you.

 

[RevolverJockey]

Charlie, thanks for information. Any idea if there was a practice when these went back for the safety and proof firing if they were refinished as part of this process? It is hard to be certain but it looks like there is finish where the P and S stamps were added. If it has been refinished is there any telling signit was done privately or at Smith on behalf of the Navy? Thanks,
Lee

 

[ordnanceguy]

Lee:

You are welcome. Glad to be of some assistance.

I don't know of any documentation to support this (other than the contract between the government and S&W), but my expectation is that most--and probably all--of the guns sent back for this mod were refinished at S&W. These guns tended to be the ones that had been in service the longest during the war and, thus, had a lot of wear and tear. S&W received a contract at the end of the war to rebuild a certain number of Victories and I suspect that all of those guns were refinished as part of the work done.

In contrast to some martial guns that have gone through a rebuild and have suffered accordingly in perceived value by collectors (Model 1911A1 pistols and M1 Carbines come to mind), I don't think that there is any negative attached to the Victories that went through the modification for the safety hammer block. There just are not a lot of those guns around. For Victory collectors these guns are a variant that attracts attention from those who know what they are looking at. I think a gun with that mod is equal to or perhaps more valuable than an unmodified example, assuming both are in identical condition.

I have an article in preparation for the S&WCA Journal that will discuss a sub-sub-variant of this group of Victories. If I spent more time working on that article and less time fooling around on the Forum here I would surely get it finished a lot sooner....

 

[RevolverJockey]

The 32nd edition Blue Book of Gun Values by Fjestad does not list Navy models separately or mention a premium but I did notice the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson mentions US Navy marked top strap Victories carry a 50-100% premium and Property of US Navy frame marked ones a double to triple value over standard Gov't marked examples. Not having any real trend data, which is closer to correct? No more questions on this. I will just buy it.
Lee

 

[ordnanceguy]

The SCS&W has much better information in my estimation than does the Blue Book.

 

[Cyrano]

Ordnanceguy: Is there any explanation for the 'S' on the rear of my Navy Victory? It has the old-type safety.

 

[RevolverJockey]

Ordnanceguy: Is there any explanation for the 'S' on the rear of my Navy Victory? It has the old-type safety.

Is the "S" on the sideplate or the frame somewhere? Was the sideplate modified to accept the new safety, but the original style installed?
Lee

 

[ordnanceguy]

Is there any explanation for the 'S' on the rear of my Navy Victory?

Cyrano:

I am sure that there is some good reason as to why the face of the cylinder on some Victories is marked with an "S", but I don't know what it is. I do not think it is associated with the safety hammer block since the mark is seen on guns that do not have the safety hammer block installed.

 

[junebug]

I have a V176xxx with flaming bomb on opposite side of serial #, 2 "M"s
on same side of exposed grip frame, "s" on opposite side of frame, all numbers matching numbers, "s" on back of cylinder, no P's, or anyother
marks, except the normal Seal and Patent. It's dark parkerized. Never been refinished and is excellent 99% shape. With the acceptance mark,
what have I got. It's a beauty!! Has nothing else on the top of frame.
Has swivel. What have got?? First time on Forum!! Enjoying it!! junebug