Victory S&W 38/200

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nsajorden

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I have a S&W Victory and the holster W/belt.
Ser.#V312970
Top Strap:U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D.
Bar:.38 .767' 3 1/2 TONS 38 S&W CTG
Royal Crown on frame and barrel.
Walnut grips.
Lanyard on but.
Royal Crown on flap of holster. HMS under crown.
Your comments please.
Dave..............
 
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I have a S&W Victory and the holster W/belt.
Ser.#V312970
Top Strap:U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D.
Bar:.38 .767' 3 1/2 TONS 38 S&W CTG
Royal Crown on frame and barrel.
Walnut grips.
Lanyard on but.
Royal Crown on flap of holster. HMS under crown.
Your comments please.
Dave..............
 
I have come to like some of these lend-lease guns as they are so nicely defaced by our allies with interesting little stamps. Too bad they didn't send them back to us in decent condition as many of them look like they were dragged behind the ship on their way back stateside.
 
Originally posted by nsajorden:
I have a S&W Victory and the holster W/belt...
Your comments please.
Dave..............
Click to expand...

Dave,

I see that this is your first post, so, first of all, let me welcome you to the Forum. You will find very knowledgeable people here willing to help you--real Victory Model experts like ordnanceguy. Your rig sounds very interesting, particularly since you have an original issue holster and maybe an original issue belt. Your Victory is a Lend-Lease Act firearm sent overseas to help our Allies in WWII, but I will let Charlie, or one of the real experts tell you more about it.

GB
 
Hi Dave:

Welcome to the Forum.

From your serial number I can estimate, based on the information in the Victory Model Database, which my collaborator LWCmdr45 and I maintain, that your Victory was likely shipped from the Smith & Wesson factory in the May, 1943 time frame.

My friend Gunbarrel has correctly identified your revolver as a Lend Lease piece. As such it was likely shipped to the Hartford Ordnance Depot in Springfield, Mass. This was the destination for most of the Lend Lease Victories.

From your description it appears that your revolver also underwent post-war commercial proofing in the UK, a not uncommon occurrence for many .38-200 Victories.

I am not familiar with the marking you mention on the holster. Perhaps you could post a pic or two of it. Am I correct in assuming that the holster is web/canvas? While there were some leather holsters used by British and Commonwealth Forces, most of the holsters used in WW2 were the Pattern '37 web/canvas type.

I hope this information is helpful to you. Enjoy your Smith.

Regards,
Charlie Flick
S&WCA #729
NRA Life
 
The Virginian,Gunbarrel,Ordanceguy, Sirs,
Thank you all for your response to my Email.
The holster is made of leather and the belt is web.I donot think the belt is original. It looks
to new.
The holster is however is original. The crowns on the Vic are the same as the one on the holster. A frind of mine, how comes from Scotland,said the crown shows it was use by the English Army.HMS, he said is "Her Majesty Service".
I am not very good with a camera,( I'm 70 ),so I will get one of my kids to do it for me.
Again Thank You All for your help,
Dave.................
 
Welcome to the Forum!

Sounds like a nice find. Look forward to seeing the photos!
 
That's usually OHMS: On His/Her Majesty's Service. Seen it on official stationery, not on holsters.

HMS usually means His/Her Majesty's Ship and is followed by the ship's name, Hotspur, Intrepid, etc.: HMS Invincible, etc.

If it's on a holster, I'd like to see the photos when your kids take them. Any Commonwealth leather holsters of that period are interesting.

T-Star
 
In the spirit of clarifying facts, there is no such thing as the "English Army" either. Rather it is the British Army and each has units from all the countries in the UK, England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. Not all are chartered by the crown, that is why it is not called the Royal Army, unlike the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force that are. The crown I believe represents acceptance by a Royal Armoury/Proof House.
 
Texas Star,
Sir you are quite right in OHMS. This holster is very much worn. There maybe an "O" in front.
You are also correct about "HMS". I was Navy in my young years.Thank You so much for your Email.
Dave................

The Virginian,
Sir your comments are also correct. My Grandfather came from Deven England,and my Grandmother came form Glassgow Scotland.My Grandfather always refered to it as "UK".
I think you are right about acceptance by the R.A. Thank you much for you info.
Dave.................
 
Help: How do I send pictures to this part of the web?

38S&W guns,Chamber 0.3825, Bore 0.360

380/200 or 38/200, Chamber 0.3890, Bore 0.3610

A good load for 38/200:
125gr.TCBB Bullet 82% Lead
2.7gr. Win. #231 Power
Star-Line 38S&W Brass. After firing size to 0.3850, I had a die made for this sizing.
Factory brass comes 0.3820, That is 0.0005 under the standed S&W38,but 0.0070 under 38/200.
I have found that Win.SP. Primers work best,because they are soft. (save that firing pin.)

It was said by somone about rechambering the 38S&W for 38Sspl. Not a good Idea. 38spl has a much higher chamber pressure than 38S&W, also 38spl comes in load like 38+P,38+P+,38MP,and hydroshock.
Any one of this could cause the roof of the chamber to blow,or cause the top strap to give way.

I would not rechamer any old gun, twice in my time,I have bought a gun only the find it had been rechambered. At an auction I bought a Webley 455 M4, when they handed to me, I noted it was rechambered for 45acp w/moon clips. I could have cried.

If you must rechamber a 38S&W, my I ofter an answer. Take a look at the 38 long colt. You can use the same 0.360 Bullet and get twice the power as the S&W38. Brass is easy to get from Star-Line Brass Co.

When you all get my pictures I will answer all your questions the best I can.


Keep on gunning DAVE...................................
 
Hi *guy,
I use HP PHOTOSMART ESSENTIAL program to send photos. It work great for all the nets I use.
What I need is the address for my post.
Can this happen?
DAVE..........................
 
Help: Photobucket doesn't work for me *Guy.
What am I doing wrong.I followed your Email to no avail.


DAVE......................
Email Address: [email protected]
 
Virginian,Gunbarrel,Ordnanceguy,Digi-Shots,
and Taxas Star,
Thank you all for your info.and your advice.
I have been in contact with an expert and have gotten much information about my S&W Vic. I used a leather scribe to trace the HMS on the holster and it is the initials of the man who carried it in the war. It is not "H.M.S.".It was not stamped into the leather,it was carved in. However the crown was stamped and I didnot mess with it. It is to bad that you can not see the photos of it, I donot have "permission" to send them to the forum,So this will be my last Email to the forum. Thank all of you, Have a wonderfull NEW YEAR..............
Colour Me Gone.......DAVE
 
Here are some of the pics that were sent to me:

IMG_0107.jpg


IMG_0111.jpg


IMG_0112.jpg


IMG_0113.jpg


IMG_0114.jpg


IMG_0116.jpg


IMG_0122.jpg


IMG_0123.jpg


IMG_0124.jpg


IMG_0125.jpg


IMG_0127.jpg
 
Muley, You da MAN. Thank You so much.
St.John 3:16 YEA MAN
Dave, USNSG, NSA, NIS.
 
Hay Muley,
Can you see the crown in the leather? It's just above the MS?
It looks like it was stamped. HMS was scribed in, probably by the man who carried it in the service.
 
Muley, thanks so much for posting the pics!

Most of the stampings are post war commercial stamps (crown over BNP, tons on the barrel).

Same for the crossed swords with H,B over 2 which is the "view mark" - the B stands for the Birmingham Proof House; the H is for the year 1957.

My best guess is that the gun was a WWII Victory model used by the British and released from the military in 1957.

I'm not sure what to say about the holster and it's markings.

It's a very nice looking rig!
 
nsajorden,

Does the holster have a metal staple at the top and bottom of the sewn edge?

I've got a similar unmarked leather holster with these staples, and the metal belt hanger on the back. I think it was mentioned (by Lefty??) that the Brauer Bros. holster maker made similiar holsters and can be identified by these staples. I do know that Brauer Bros. was a government holster contractor during WWII.
 
Digi-Shots,
There are no staples on the holster.
From the picture,can you see the crown?
I gave the Englishman a name,"Harry Mick Smith".
Why not?...........
By the way, this gun shoots great. Two inch group, offhand at 7yrds, with my handloads.
I ware the gun crossdraw like the Limies.
Thanks to all you guys for your help.
DAVE..................
 
Yep, sure did see the crown. Unfortunately, I know very little about Brit holsters from that era.

I have had many friends who worked for the NSA. I once lived with my grandmother in Severn, next to Ft Meade.
 
The holster and the belt look to be US items. I suspect they were never issued with this gun. The belt looks to be postwar issue. This is just some rig that someone got and used with that gun.

You need to go to the British Gun Pub forum at www.gunboards.com to ask to see official British holsters. They'll show 'em to you! Some are already shown in various threads there.

Many movies show the usual M-1937 Pattern webbing holsters for these guns, which were originally meant for the Enfield No. 2 Mk. I .38's. But they were used with ALL .38's in British service after 1940, when many Colt and S&W guns were also bought or obtained via Lend-Lease.

Two movies that I can recommend are, "The Guns of Navarone" and "Drums", the latter released in 1937. The web holster was already in use. Try video rental places that have a section for classic movies to see these.


T-Star
 
Here http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=31756&d=1198613387 is the earlier selective DA Enfield, in the more common Pattern 1937 webbing flapped holster. This is the most common WW II British revolver holster.

Leather holsters do exist, especially from some Commonwealth countries, but this webbing form is by far the most common.

RAF holsters and belts were gray. Army ones were olive, except for some MP ones, which were white. I have seen white ones on members of the Royal Navy, but they may have had other colors, too. I seriously doubt that Naval pilots, for instance, wore white holsters!


T-Star
 
T-Star,
Thank you for your message,I will try that web .
The web belt is much to new to be the orig.
You are also right that someone put this rig together. I donot think the gun and hoster were use together.
Thanks again and have a great NEW YEAR.
DAVE...........................
 
You guys are amazing........
There is this wealth of knowledge about the wartime guns....I found this one, but don't know if it ever went to British...no british proofs, only the US Property on top strap......
VictoryK-200comp.jpg
in the same collection was the 1917.....
1917Armycomp.jpg

Terry
 
That is a very nice looking 28/200... and as I would expect it shoots well too...

The belt is not contemporary with the gun... it seems to be a nylon web belt...which would be late Viet Nam era at the earliest... I could not see the buckle so can't say exactly what style it is, but it is certainly arpimd 1970s.

The holster also has the U.S. type pistol belt hanger on it, which would be correct for WWII... so I would say the holster could be British issue... though the in all probability not issued with the gun give the Birmingham proof marks.

FWIW

Chuck
 
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