W-W Treasury ammo?

[LittleAugieMo]

Recently aquired a box of W-W .38 spcl.headstamped +p+ states on box is23% higher pressure than +p. Only have the one box. Shoot or not. Have K frames ( no dash&-1) available also L frames& of coures N frames. Opinions?

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Easy for me! Since I have more 357s than 38s, I would shoot it in 357s.
No! Wait! Not sure I would shot it!
I am the Guy who shot the only 38-44 that he ever saw!

 

[Greyman50]

LEO or on the shelf ammo? How old is the ammo?

 

[TJm15.38]

I have some Federal .38 Special +P+ 140-grain hydra-shock that I keep loaded in a bedside Model 65-5 .357. I acquired a few boxes of this stuff a while back at the local pawn and gun. The broker claimed it was law-enforcement surplus, but wouldn't know how to verify that. I don't shoot much of it, but it's fairly accurate. Good enough for defense ammo and won't ever harm the K-Frame .357.

 

[robertrwalsh]

I would not shoot that in anything other than a good, solid N frame revolver, and maybe not even then. It wasn't designed to be pumped out of a Model 19.

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

It's probably got some age to it. I'm not aware of Winchester making any runs of it for quite some time as law enforcement has all but totally gone to self-loading pistols. The +P+ market is probably small to non-existent now.

Winchester does load a 110 grain JHP .357 Magnum which is...from what I understand...an equivalent load in the .357 case.

 

[toad67]

Time to go find a Treasury revolver to go with it, along with some larger bills would make a neat little display.

 

[Alk8944]

There really is no reason to be afraid to shoot OPs ammunition in any K-frame .38 Special. 123% of +P is ca. 25,000 PSI, which is in the pressure range of the .38-44 Hi-Speed ammunition which is believed to have been from 25,000 to 29,000 PSI. There was never any restriction from shooting the .38-44 loads from Winchester or others in K-frame .38 Special guns clear back to 1929 when the .38-44 load was introduced for the Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman revolvers.

If you look in any older gun catalogs from the 1950-1960s you will find the Hi-Speed .38 was listed as an acceptable alternate load for the K-frame guns! Many would probably be put off by the heavy recoil though.

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

My 2.5" Colt Python snubby loves the Treasury Load. With a tighter rate of twist one would think heavier bullets would be more accurate but this revolver shoots the 110 gr. +P+ like a laser.

 

[Yendor357]

Chrono that stuff. Shoot into water jugs. Report back.

 

[Chuck Edwards]

I doubt that one box would hurt a numbered K frame in .38 Special. IIRC, it's pretty blasty stuff. Shoot it up and use the brass to reload, or gift the brass to a friend who reloads.

 

[DWalt]

Indeed, the original .38-44 factory loads of the 1930s were believed to be in the 25 Kpsi range, if not higher. Yet there were no warnings provided that such loads were unsafe to use in any revolver chambered for .38 Special. And back then, there were numerous S&W 1899s and Colt Army Specials still in common use. The main concern was objectionable recoil when fired in lighter revolvers. I once did some simulations on the Quickload ballistics software and found that the predicted peak chamber pressure of .38-44 loads would have been in the 25+ Kpsi range.

 

[LittleAugieMo]

LEO or on the shelf ammo? How old is the ammo?

LEO W-W states on top. Headstamp dates 78

 

[alwslate]

Shoot it in any model marked K frame because the cyl steel is the same as the model 19 which is ok for the 35,000 psi of the .357 magnum. It is 110 gr HP ammo and not really all that hot. I bought one box many years ago and chronographed it out of my 60-7 which is rated for +P. Don't remember the velocity without searching my records but I remember it wasn't very impressive.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

In What guns did the Gov Folks shoot this stuff?

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

I would shoot it. I provided a link to an interesting article on the Treasury Load from Shooting Times.

The 38 Special +P+ Treasury Load - Shooting Times

 

[Dave Lively]

The SAAMI max pressure spec for 38+P is 20,000 PSI and 35,000 PSI for .357.

If the +P+ ammo is 23% higher pressure than +P it would be 24,600 PSI, well under the spec for .357.

If your K and L frames are chambered in .357 that ammo should be fine.

 

[alwslate]

Chronographed velocity out of my 1&7/8" J frame 60-7 was about what was in the data from the link above, a bit under 1,000 fps. Not exactly a dragon slaying SD load that has to be fired in N frames. Might have been designed for carry in Air Liners where penetration is undesirable. My guess is that Gov Folks carried it in their steel J frames.

 

[stansdds]

Perfectly safe to fire in any revolver chambered in 357 Magnum. It should be perfectly safe in any K-frame that has a model number stamped into the frame's yoke recess. In a J-frame? Probably fine in an all-steel J-frame with a model number, but not likely to be particularly pleasant to shoot.

 

[38SPL HV]

…suggest you shoot them in your L and N frames not early 38 Spl K frames if you don't have to. The original 38-44 loads (158 gr and 1,125 fps) were reduced after WW2 closer to levels found in +P versions…regardless of what we hear in internet lore.

S&W recommends no +P usage in your early 38 Spl K frames…will these +P+ work in them…yes…shoot enough of them you'll have to find a gunsmith skilled in revolver repair.

 

[cololab]

In What guns did the Gov Folks shoot this stuff?

I was issued a Model 19 2 1/2" and later a Model 66 2 1/2".

 

[kaaskop49]

Before carrying such lightweight bullet ammo for SD, be sure to check for 'crimp jump', or whatever it is called. Yes, it also happens in .38 Spl ammo with 110gr bullets, not just .357s so loaded. I've had it happen with Federal's version of the 158gr FBI load and restricted it to larger steel frame guns.

A side note, I wonder how many of us carrying revolvers for SD will thoroughly 'wring out' a potential defense load to the tune of a box or two. Realistic practice, and any ammo flaws likely to show up.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

 

[biku324]

Shoot it in your K-frame and enjoy the brass.

I recently fired some 1988 Federal 357B 125 grain JHP - it was as accurate and blasty as when new.

 

[Narragansett]

I can't seem to get past why it is called +P+ instead of ++P

 

[biku324]

It was 40 years ago and much was not settled on labeling new LE ammo.

 

[loc n load]

WW +P+

My agency issued that round for duty carry in the 80's. We carried it in 2 and 4" model 10 K frames. I was a FA instructor and have seen thousands of rounds of that go down range through K frames.

I clocked some of this 80's vintage LEO ONLY +P+ 110 JHP last year from my Labradar.
Out of a 4" K frame it averaged: 1064 fps with a SD of 6.

 

[glenwolde]

I have some Federal .38 Special +P+ 140-grain hydra-shock that I keep loaded in a bedside Model 65-5 .357. I acquired a few boxes of this stuff a while back at the local pawn and gun. The broker claimed it was law-enforcement surplus, but wouldn't know how to verify that. I don't shoot much of it, but it's fairly accurate. Good enough for defense ammo and won't ever harm the K-Frame .357.

View attachment 706984

I have some of that. Mine is marked "Law Enforcement Only". Is yours marked that way? If so maybe the dealer just made an assumption it had to be surplus. They normally did not sell this through normal retail channels. I have a friend who is LEO and he ordered it for me from a Police Supply during one of the shortages. They could get all the ammo they wanted. It's in both bedside guns. One Model 15 and an SP101.

 

[WR Moore]

As an old coot, let me make a historical reference or two.

.38 Spl +P+ was the way to get near .357 Magnum performance without the evil .357 MAGNUM headstamp. Back then, the libs were frothing at the mouth about expanding bullets and downright hysterical about the thought of LEAs using MAGNUMS on criminals (but they didn't use that term). IIRC, most Federal agencies issued 19s/13s but they were "only loaded with .38 Spl" to minimize the uproar.

FWIW, the Federal 9mm BPLE +P+ that managed to make it into private hands didn't chrono much/any hotter than +P. But that stuff may not have met contract specs and been allowed to escape to the regular distribution network. *

I'm old enough to remember .38 Hi Speed/.38-44 being on shelves. Back then it was regarded as N frame/New Service fodder rather than for the smaller guns. About the same time, S&W had prototype J frame .357s. They were never produced as it was felt there wouldn't be a market.

*Much later addition: I was able to read one of the hold harmless agreements the purchasers of +P+ had to sign as part of the procurement contract(s). It warned of use causing accelerated wear of firearms and possible serious injury or death for the user. Presumably if used in .38 Spl firearms.

 

[TJm15.38]

I have some of that. Mine is marked "Law Enforcement Only". Is yours marked that way? If so maybe the dealer just made an assumption it had to be surplus. They normally did not sell this through normal retail channels. I have a friend who is LEO and he ordered it for me from a Police Supply during one of the shortages. They could get all the ammo they wanted. It's in both bedside guns. One Model 15 and an SP101.

Yes; I've only got a couple of boxes left. Got it at a good price a few years ago.

 

[sigp220.45]

I'd shoot it out of anything it would fit into. 110 grain bullet at 1000 fps is just not that hot, scary headstamp notwithstanding.