Wad Cutters for Defence

i used to load hollow base wadcutters with the hollow base up, makes a wicked hollow point, they will open up nice at moderate speeds.

;):D



Racingsnake here is my perfered carry load "Jim Cirillo's Safe Stop"



Now Boys, that is sur nuf ol school right thar!

But, knotchin' them bullet noses go way back, I recall ol men talking about doing that when I was a young'n....


I used to load them HBWC backwards for them snubs,
now I'm jest loading a sharp shoulder cast or swaged HPs......For just about everything now'n days.


Su Amigo,
Dave
 
Secondary question, the primary question is can you hit with a .38 wadcutter. There is no magic bullet, it's about shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. If you shoot well with wadcutters then by all means use them with confidence. Any gun and ammo combination you shoot well is a viable defense tool.

Shot placement in a self-defense situation is a fantasy. Shot placement in a self-defense situation is a fantasy. Shot placement in a self-defense situation is a fantasy.
 
I have always thought the wadcutter had a place in personal defense. I really want a wadcutter mould and have someone hollowpoint the darn thing. Eventually I want to try some expansion tests on these old Hydrashok hollowpoints to see exactly what they can do before I carry them around in my 649.

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After having lurked on this thread I started researching what the current market had to offer in wad-cutter's. What I found was not pretty, In fact it was UGLY!!. Not only are there not many choices, the availability is dismal and the price is over the moon. The "out of stock" notices got to be really tiring. :mad: Haven't reloaded in decades but it might be time. Thanks to the OP for dusting off my cobwebs.

hardcase60
 
The factory target wadcutters don't offer much performance out of a
J frame snubby barrel in my opinion so I load my own for carry in my
37. 4.0 grs Bullseye under a hard cast 148 gr bevel base wad cutter
crimped in the crimping groove runs 820 fps out of the 1 7/8" barrel
of my lightweight 37-2 and is a standard pressure load according to
every reloading manual I have. A substantial improvement over
factory target wadcutters and at standard pressure.
 
The factory target wadcutters don't offer much performance out of a
J frame snubby barrel in my opinion so I load my own for carry in my
37. 4.0 grs Bullseye under a hard cast 148 gr bevel base wad cutter
crimped in the crimping groove runs 820 fps out of the 1 7/8" barrel
of my lightweight 37-2 and is a standard pressure load according to
every reloading manual I have. A substantial improvement over
factory target wadcutters and at standard pressure.

10-4. I use Pennbullets premium hardcast, and crimp in the first groove, giving me 1.245" COAL.

In my speedloader for my 642, I have Blazer brass 125 FMJ. Chosen for the round nose, to ease reloading. Reloading still takes me forever.
 
Shot placement in a self-defense situation is a fantasy. Shot placement in a self-defense situation is a fantasy. Shot placement in a self-defense situation is a fantasy.

It is? Please elaborate. No disrespect meant, but I'm curious why attaining fairly solid COM hits in a civilian self-defense situation is a statistical impossibility.
 
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Shot placement in a self-defense situation is a fantasy. Shot placement in a self-defense situation is a fantasy. Shot placement in a self-defense situation is a fantasy.

Nothing personal, but this is bunk.
Shot placement is everything. I "know a guy" who was in a defensive situation in Seattle a few years back, and ran his 4516 to slidelock on a bad guy at ~30 feet. The ME reported (a month later) that there were five unsurvivable hits, and that they only recovered five rounds in the guy. He believed that the last three went through the existing hole, based on some of the tearing in that area with no rounds accounting for it.

That guy carries a revolver now, and wadcutters suit him fine.
 
It is? Please elaborate. No disrespect meant, but I'm curious why attaining fairly solid COM hits in a civilian self-defense situation is a statistical impossibility.

Not impossible. Just unlikely.

If you have to shoot someone, it is highly likely that you'll be within six feet of them. Hence you will not be able to extend your arms toward them, as that will create an opportunity for them to grab your gun. You will likely be holding your gun between waist and chest high when you fire. You will hence not be able to use the sights. Hence you will not be able to aim, at least not in a conventional manor. By the way, the perp will likely be moving, and you should be moving, too. Look at "shot placement" in that perspective.

Additionally, even at longer range, where sights could be used, target fixation frequently causes people to ignore the sights. It's hard to take your eyes off someone who is threatening your life.

The average shot fired in self defense MISSES THE ASSAILANT ENTIRELY. That's why I get so amused when the "over penetration" crowd comes out.

You mention COM hits, and that is good. Targeting COM is what you should expect to have to try. You will instinctively do that, anyway, as COM will be the largest target available during your extreme situation. SD shoot training should include some shots fired from waist high at short range, like 5 feet.

Also, do not shoot once, then pause to analyze the effect. Most handguns are poor stoppers; you should expect to continue firing until you get a positive reaction from the assailant, i.e., they collapse or run, so that they are no longer a threat to you. Your first shot is unlikely to stop the assailant, and you won't know whether it was because it didn't stop them, or your shot missed entirely.

The above is why I say "shot placement" in a self defense situation is a fantasy. You'll be damn lucky just to hit them!
 
The above is why I say "shot placement" in a self defense situation is a fantasy. You'll be damn lucky just to hit them!

Fire from a retention position when within spitting distance of an attacker... Shoot until the threat stops... Seems we have all the proper bases covered. Yet, I still don't see how Smith357 was emphasizing surgical shot placement within the context of a very close self-defense encounter.

Just my own personal viewpoint, but if I were within six feet of an attacker, especially a knife-wielder, the LAST thing I'd be doing is reaching for my sidearm... In fact, I'd probably be asking myself why my situational awareness (or lack thereof) hadn't prompted me to present it before they even got that close to me.

Anyhow, I don't wish to digress from the OP's topic. If you would like to discuss this further, I would be happy to but I also recommend that you start a new thread so we don't get dinged by the moderators.
 
The average shot fired in self defense MISSES THE ASSAILANT ENTIRELY.
.............
Your first shot is unlikely to stop the assailant,
.............
You'll be damn lucky just to hit them!


At this point why am I bothering to carry a firearm? If I opt to wallop him with a frying pan, can I aim for the head or would that be pointless too?
 
Shot placement in a self-defense situation is a fantasy. Shot placement in a self-defense situation is a fantasy. Shot placement in a self-defense situation is a fantasy.

That's your opinion. Can you defend it with fact that can be verified?
 
At this point why am I bothering to carry a firearm? If I opt to wallop him with a frying pan, can I aim for the head or would that be pointless too?

In the vast majority of cases, the simple appearance of a firearm stops confrontation. With no shots fired.

In most cases where shots are fired, the confrontation ends immediately. Not because the perp has been physically stopped, but because he doesn't like being shot at enough to stop what he is doing.

In the above two situations, a handgun is a very useful tool.

In the third case, where there is a determined attacker who is inclined to continue even if hit, a handgun is a sorry weapon.

If you have to shoot, you don't know which kind of attacker you are facing.
 
I practice alot with my 158 grain load - about 500 rounds a month and I shoot occassionaly with +p 158 gr LSWCHP's - sure I can keep all five shots in the vital zone at 7 and 10 yards but follow-up are slower and less pin-point than wad cutters.

There may be 'better' choices these days but I think the wad cutters low recoil and inherant accuracy support the need for good shot placement under stress - especially with the light weight snubs these days.


I still think the 158gr Remington lead SWCHP +P is one of the better defense loads in the .38 Special. ( Buffalo Bore makes two versions, one a +P & the other a std pressure. ) It will reach vitals & if it doesn't expand, you still have a heavy SWC cutting through everything in it's way.
Massad Ayoob makes reference to it in his Handgun Defense book.
Frank
 
Not true at all. It happens. If it happened once, it can happen again.
The Liberty Papers »Blog Archive » Harold Fish is Free!

That's sort of old news, but is the classic example of an incompetent defense attorney. The prosecutor latched onto the use of a .40 S&W as an example of wanton blood lust and murderous intent on the part of the defendant, and convinced the jury of it. His defense attorney did an extremely poor job of pointing out how common the .40 S&W was in police service, and that it was no more indicative of blood lust than any other caliber. I believe the AZ state law was later changed to prevent this sort of travesty of justice from happening to anyone else. Several years ago, this case was covered thoroughly on one of the network news shows like Dateline or 20/20. But I don't remember which show it was.
 
That's sort of old news, but is the classic example of an incompetent defense attorney. The prosecutor latched onto the use of a .40 S&W as an example of wanton blood lust and murderous intent on the part of the defendant, and convinced the jury of it. His defense attorney did an extremely poor job of pointing out how common the .40 S&W was in police service, and that it was no more indicative of blood lust than any other caliber. I believe the AZ state law was later changed to prevent this sort of travesty of justice from happening to anyone else. Several years ago, this case was covered thoroughly on one of the network news shows like Dateline or 20/20. But I don't remember which show it was.

One of the many reasons that Harold Fish was convicted by a jury of his peers was because the killing weapon was a 10MM caliber pistol loaded with hollow point ammunition. And when many of the jury members went on TV to talk about this case, the use of the "powerful" 10MM caliber with HP ammo is what stuck in their minds, which helped the prosecutor get his conviction.

Also, just because Fish's attorney didn't know how to defend the use of a 10MM caliber firearm using HP ammo for SD, that doesn't mean he had an incompetent legal counsel.
 
Oh, heck... I might as well break my own promise. When in Rome... :D

Others may find this an interesting read:

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

It's a very interesting read indeed, but I still see little correlation between civilian self-defense shootings and LE shootings. To the best of my knowledge, the former does not involve having to shoot barricaded perpetrators behind intermediate barriers, nor have I heard (to date) of any scenarios involving two or more armed civilians engaging a single attacker.

In most cases where shots are fired, the confrontation ends immediately. Not because the perp has been physically stopped, but because he doesn't like being shot at enough to stop what he is doing.

So you mean to say that the overwhelming statistical majority of "stops" in civilian SD scenarios are psychological rather than physiological in nature? Interesting... Could you cite any materials or studies to corroborate that? (To elaborate, I'm not talking about cases where the defender missed completely.)
 
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