Wadcutters For Snubbies

[sigp220.45]

The old “.30 Carbine wouldn’t penetrate Chinese coats in Korea” chestnut has been debunked many times over. Its pretty easy to test.

The .30 Carbine will definitely not penetrate Chinese jackets if you miss, though.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

The failings of the 30 Carbine in Korea were probably due to groggy, exhausted, sleep deprived GIs and Marine trying to fight Red hordes at 0200 in zero degree weather.

 

[fatcat3]

A winter coat isn't going to stop any bullets. I wonder where this got started. I would be glad to see it go away.

Any pellet gun will sail straight through a winter parka.

Live in Maine, not the coldest place I ever lived but it gets brisk. always wondered where these people were living that winter clothes stopped bullets. Dad was one of the frozen chosen and always said people that thought that the 30 carbine was stopped by Chinese quilted vests just missed the target.
OH, Standard pressure 158gn SWC for me.

 

[pasound]

It was the multi-layer woven bamboo fiber vests. Early precursor to kevlar.

.30 cal from an M-1 carbine was well known to penetrate the existing bulletproof vests of the day. My dad told me about testing them in WWII when he was stationed at the Aberdeen Proving Ground.

 

[diyj98]

I’ve shot full metal jacket 30 carbine through all kinds of things. They’ll certainly penetrate any winter outfit a North Korean or Chinese soldier could have worn.

 

[ManInBlack83]

It's all theory isn't it? No handgun, even the .44 Remington Magnum, is a 100% one-stop-shot affair.

A few pages from Jim Cirillo's book. Good advice from a guy who's BTDT.

 

[AJ]

Those appear to be the type of projectiles Cirillo was working on and tried to get someone to produce. Check out the Chapter "Are Hollowpoint Bullets the Way to Go?' in his book "Guns, Bullets, and Gunfights".. The only time he mentions one of these bullets being used in a gunfight was when his partner Bill Allard used one in a .45ACP. I have never seen where any ammuntion company ever picked these up to produce.

A few pages from Jim Cirillo's book. Good advice from a guy who's BTDT.

Good book, I got a copy about two weeks ago. It echos a lot of the things we were taught at Battalion Schools "Combat Pistol/Revolver Course" back in 1988.

 

[T. McIntyre]

Accuracy is not really an issue for defensive use. We’re talking about only a few feet between shooter and target. You don’t even need rifling in the barrel.

That is utter nonsense.

The whole "well the average gunfight is 2.5 feet away and over in 3.3 rounds" is about as much nonsense as well.

I say this as someone who has been in multiple shootings. Yet somehow I have never been in an "average" fight...

Just limiting this to stateside, and not during the war, where getting shot at while defending our regional embassy outposts could be and literally was at one location a bi weekly occurrence.

Anyways, I have been shot at distances where I could almost touch the guy, and then at a distance of over 100 yards.


And to ones who always "but, but, but" because they want to put things into nice neat little packages, and parameters. Bullets don't care. Bullets don't care if you define something as "offensive or defensive". Or of a person who is shooting at you is wearing a desert tan uniform, or the colors of a local gang member, or just the regular clothes of a pissed off knucklehead. It makes no difference.

Conflict is conflict and battle is battle. When people are trying to kill you, you don't stop and say "wait, is this an offensive shooting and are you 6.5 feet away?", is this a police shooting, or a civilian shooting, because a gunfight between two men is somehow different if someone is wearing blue polyester! I can just walk away if I am a citizen! (NO, No you cannot. Predators do not let people just "walk away"..) I need to change guns and tactics and define things differently. Timeout!

I need a gun with rifling, and I need to aim. Wait!



The REALITY is that EVERY shooting is a precision shooting event. It does not matter of you are in a meeting hall in a village in Iraq, or a grocery store isle or parking lot in Iowa. You are responsible for your rounds, and you have to make precise hits. Or there are consequences.

I have carried a J Frame for more than 25 years loaded with wadcutters, and practiced with those wadcutters out to 50 yards. The J Frame is generally a BUG to my primary, but I treat it as a precision weapon and train with it as such.

I have learned exactly where the sights hit at different yardages, as shown here:

And here are two groups at 50 yards. The blue dots were my first group.

The point is that I have never, not once been issued a crystal ball to tell me that in 10 minutes that I was going to be in a gunfight, how many people would be involved or if there would be hostages. So I train and practice as if my life and the lives of the people I care about depend on it because they do and they have.


In spite of what the theorists think, you won't get the fight you WANT.

You will get the fight that you GET.

It won't be in your favor. You just have to deal with it. How well you deal with it will depend on how long you and possibly others will live.

There is your reality check for the day.

 

[rockquarry]

That is utter nonsense.

The whole "well the average gunfight is 2.5 feet away and over in 3.3 rounds" is about as much nonsense as well.

I say this as someone who has been in multiple shootings. Yet somehow I have never been in an "average" fight...

Just limiting this to stateside, and not during the war, where getting shot at while defending our regional embassy outposts could be and literally was at one location a bi weekly occurrence.

Anyways, I have been shot at distances where I could almost touch the guy, and then at a distance of over 100 yards.


And to ones who always "but, but, but" because they want to put things into nice neat little packages, and parameters. Bullets don't care. Bullets don't care if you define something as "offensive or defensive". Or of a person who is shooting at you is wearing a desert tan uniform, or the colors of a local gang member, or just the regular clothes of a pissed off knucklehead. It makes no difference.

Conflict is conflict and battle is battle. When people are trying to kill you, you don't stop and say "wait, is this an offensive shooting and are you 6.5 feet away?", is this a police shooting, or a civilian shooting, because a gunfight between two men is somehow different if someone is wearing blue polyester! I can just walk away if I am a citizen! (NO, No you cannot. Predators do not let people just "walk away"..) I need to change guns and tactics and define things differently. Timeout!

I need a gun with rifling, and I need to aim. Wait!



The REALITY is that EVERY shooting is a precision shooting event. It does not matter of you are in a meeting hall in a village in Iraq, or a grocery store isle or parking lot in Iowa. You are responsible for your rounds, and you have to make precise hits. Or there are consequences.

I have carried a J Frame for more than 25 years loaded with wadcutters, and practiced with those wadcutters out to 50 yards. The J Frame is generally a BUG to my primary, but I treat it as a precision weapon and train with it as such.

I have learned exactly where the sights hit at different yardages, as shown here:

And here are two groups at 50 yards. The blue dots were my first group.

The point is that I have never, not once been issued a crystal ball to tell me that in 10 minutes that I was going to be in a gunfight, how many people would be involved or if there would be hostages. So I train and practice as if my life and the lives of the people I care about depend on it because they do and they have.


In spite of what the theorists think, you won't get the fight you WANT.

You will get the fight that you GET.

It won't be in your favor. You just have to deal with it. How well you deal with it will depend on how long you and possibly others will live.

There is your reality check for the day.

Nothing wrong with shooting a J-frame at distance. Too many preach the close-up creed, primarily using it as an excuse to avoid improving shooting skill. J-frames are truly difficult for most of us to master, but the guns are certainly capable.

 

[smoothshooter]

Have heard that before. I have always wondered at what range.

I wonder how many of those hits were ricochets from other objects that slowed them down.

 

[smoothshooter]

in one of his books Cirillo talked about effectiveness of different loads. he actually had a bad guy take a 12 ga. slug in the chest and still leave the building and go to the curb where he thought his ride would be. IIRC Cirillo said that after all the shootings they had the only thing he could absolutely guarantee to be an immediate stop was a .38 WC placed in the vicinity of the target's right eye.

I highly recommend Cirillo's books. He really had been there and done that as opposed to all the admen pushing new stuff and all the keyboard commandos.

I might add that Cirillo's WC loads were "full charge" loads that produced the same velocity as the 158 RN load. It is my understanding that ammunition companies loaded these for several large city PDs including New York. This load gave the same recoil as the RN carry loads but were easier to score on qualifications. This load can be replicated with a SOLID based WC and 3.5 grains of Bullseye (I wouldn't use over 3.2 grains with any HBWC available today). I use a Lyman 358495. Velocity will run about 800fps in a 4" and they average 749fps out of my Model 49. Penetration is more than adequate and as Elmer Keith would say the full caliber hole lets a lot of blood out and cold air in. I have shot several sheep and a steer for slaughter with this load and have a lot of confidence in it.

I have to get some of Cirrillo’s books. I read everything he wrote in magazine articles. Matter of fact, thanks to you, I will order some tomorrow. THANK YOU for reminding me about those books.
Interesting Tidbit For the Day:
Cirillo said in a couple of his magazine articles the best all around quick put’em down round with a decently placed shot was the .30 carbine 110 grain soft point fired out of a rifle. Even better than any shotgun load. Surprise, but there it is.
Thank You 6’th Texas!

 

[Matt_X]

I wonder how many of those hits were ricochets from other objects that slowed them down.

None. It's a story that spread like stories will do. The claim is that the guy made hits, not skip shots. There's no evidence to support the claim; not a location, not a post-combat examination, nothing. Probably someone, somewhere had a bad day on the job and made up an explanation or explanations. Or his buddy did. It's not 30-06 but it will still go through thin steel or pine boards at 100 yards.

 

[AJ]

I wonder how many of those hits were ricochets from other objects that slowed them down.

Was taught that ricochets that hit the ground tend to travel parallel to the deck. Which means they will strike low on the legs. But better to hits the adversary in the legs then not at all.

 

[smoothshooter]

None. It's a story that spread like stories will do. The claim is that the guy made hits, not skip shots. There's no evidence to support the claim; not a location, not a post-combat examination, nothing. Probably someone, somewhere had a bad day on the job and made up an explanation or explanations. Or his buddy did. It's not 30-06 but it will still go through thin steel or pine boards at 100 yards.

Don’t get me wrong. I think the heavy clothing stopping .30 carbine bullets thing is unlikely on a direct hit. I have shot .30 Carbines off and on for years and early on was impressed with the penetration capabilities on steel, wood, and other materials with FMJ. Have seen steel silhouette targets that were rated full-tier .357 FMJ at close range get holed out to 75 yards. Looked like someone took an electric drill and made nice, neat holes. The 110 Jacketed Hollow Point was a real groundhog dumper out to 100+ yards, and expanded impressively and was not likely to ricochet for a any really long distance on pass-throughs.
The 110 Jacketed Soft Point is probably the most generally useful load in this cartridge as it penetrates better than the Hollow Point.
I love these little rifles and their little cartridges and the 15 round magazines, and that they can be reloaded using carbide dies.