I understand it to mean: Been there, done that and bought the tee shirt. Larry
Wadcutters For Snubbies
- Thread starter Kanewpadle
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I understand it to mean: Been there, done that and bought the tee shirt. Larry
smoothshooter
Member
Almost always, when you poke holes in somebody with bullets, they will go away.
SGT ROCK 11B
Member
SGT ROCK 11B
Member
Remember that about 50% of shots fired in an average self-defense situation do not even hit the their intended target.Of course, that doesn't include YOU!!!
That is a Training Issue:
Well trained = 100%
Not trained = 0%
SGT ROCK 11B
Member
Amateurs practice ...
... till they get it right,
Professionals practice ...
... so they don't get it wrong.
Choose wisely
... till they get it right,
Professionals practice ...
... so they don't get it wrong.
Choose wisely
Riiiiiiiiiight......
This is a discussion I've seen over and over again on firearm forums and IRL over the years. It always seems to turn into a discussion of people who are ignorant about 38 spl against people who are knowledgeable about 38 spl, and quite often the ignorant people keep spouting myths.
Training and shot placement are king. The round doesn't matter if all you can do is keep missing. You can't expect a red dot or a laser to save the day for you, when you haven't practiced enough to keep the barrel straight and steady. You can't expect a certain type of round to do it's job, if you haven't taken the time to learn how to shoot that round.
If you're claiming a snubby isn't good past "bad breath distance", you probably haven't trained for very long with one. Ditto if you think 38spl is only good for shooting jack rabits or that a winter coat will stop it.
38spl is probably the most versatile round out there, but current manufacturers keep them underpowered for some reason. I suggest anyone who's serious about snubs and 38spl learn to hand load, and look at recipes from the days of yore. There are also quite a few SD rounds out there that expand reliably from a short barrel, even if clogged by 4 layers of denim for some reason. Remington Golden Saber is one, for instance. There's a plethora of testing vids available online, and if someone is looking for an ammo brand I'd suggest starting there if you're not willing or unable to do it yourself.
While I don't carry wadcutters, they have been proven to create an open wound channel that doesn't automatically close behind it, like a round nose or unexpanded hollow point round usually will. Are they the best out there? Probably not, but I'd rather carry a strong WC load than a round nose or flat point FMJ or lead round. If that was all I had, I would be okay with it.
If I'm carrying in regular life, my 442 or 637 PC is loaded with the aforementioned Remington Golden Saber 125gr +P. If I'm hiking or camping, it's loaded with Hardcast Keith 158gr +P loads, either from Underwood or ones that I've loaded myself.
Training and shot placement are king. The round doesn't matter if all you can do is keep missing. You can't expect a red dot or a laser to save the day for you, when you haven't practiced enough to keep the barrel straight and steady. You can't expect a certain type of round to do it's job, if you haven't taken the time to learn how to shoot that round.
If you're claiming a snubby isn't good past "bad breath distance", you probably haven't trained for very long with one. Ditto if you think 38spl is only good for shooting jack rabits or that a winter coat will stop it.
38spl is probably the most versatile round out there, but current manufacturers keep them underpowered for some reason. I suggest anyone who's serious about snubs and 38spl learn to hand load, and look at recipes from the days of yore. There are also quite a few SD rounds out there that expand reliably from a short barrel, even if clogged by 4 layers of denim for some reason. Remington Golden Saber is one, for instance. There's a plethora of testing vids available online, and if someone is looking for an ammo brand I'd suggest starting there if you're not willing or unable to do it yourself.
While I don't carry wadcutters, they have been proven to create an open wound channel that doesn't automatically close behind it, like a round nose or unexpanded hollow point round usually will. Are they the best out there? Probably not, but I'd rather carry a strong WC load than a round nose or flat point FMJ or lead round. If that was all I had, I would be okay with it.
If I'm carrying in regular life, my 442 or 637 PC is loaded with the aforementioned Remington Golden Saber 125gr +P. If I'm hiking or camping, it's loaded with Hardcast Keith 158gr +P loads, either from Underwood or ones that I've loaded myself.
smoothshooter
Member
That right there.
Remember that about 50% of shots fired in an average self-defense situation do not even hit the their intended target.
Not sure if that means you agree with me or not.
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Well said; you bring up some good points.
I should have phrased my statement better. I was referring to a 148 gr. HBWC. Obviously the .38 SPL can be very effective with many different loadings.
Fastbolt
Member
Yes, no & maybe. It may depend on a couple of things ...
First, the .38SPL may have an advantage when it comes to bullet weight, especially if an expanding JHP is being discussed.
Then, there's also the potential for the frontal shape (meplat) of the non-ex-panded JHP between some .380/.38 bullets, or .380ACP Ball versus a .38SPL WC or SWC.
I once owned a double stack .380 Beretta in the 80's. One of the most annoying guns to shoot because of repeated feeding issues, even when Ball loads were being used.
While the venerable .380 is enjoying a resurgence of popularity because of really diminutive guns, as well as larger double stack guns (attractive to the capacity aficionados), the .380 v. .38 is still an exercise in determining the degree of compromise someone may favor.
I acknowledge I picked up a couple LCP's more than 10 years ago, but that was strictly because I was looking for something that would fit into some short & tight front jeans pockets which wouldn't accommodate my J-frames. It helped that I found the LCP's to be virtually as easy to shoot as my assorted J's, at least on the short range qual courses-of-fire we were running for off-duty weapons, mostly being 3-11 or 3-15yds. Personally, I found the J's to be easier to shoot at further distances, but then I wasn't carrying the LCP's for 'distance' options. One of the compromises.
Yes, I remember listening to Gary Roberts' opinion of .380ACP v. 38SPL as secondary and off-duty weapons many years ago. He also told me how he was a fan of the use of 148gr WC being used by cops in Secondary .38SPL snubs, instead of some of the +P loads. He explained his reasoning as having observed some range testing and evaluations of some cops in a pilot program for potential secondary duty weapons.
The cops participating in the program demonstrated noticeably better controllability and accuracy when using the 148gr WC, versus the +P loads initially used in the testing. That gave them better confidence. A user who has experienced consistency of controllability and accuracy can arguably find it to be an advantage when having to suddenly use it under stress.
Now, while I may favor the nose cavity profiles of some of the more modern .38SPL +P loads, I also like how they've been revised to offer the potential for resisting plugging while still offering the potential for robust expansion. That wasn't exactly something offered by the older JHP and LHP loads, especially in 2" snubs.
Basically, I carry one or another of the modern JHP's in both my .380's & .38's, and have invested the range hours and trigger time with an eye to accuracy of placement. My hope is that the slightly heavier bullet weights of the .38SPL would be an advantage, as might their potential for expansion.
TANSTAAFL, though. In my 37DAO snub I stick with standard pressure 110gr loads, which does put it more in the bullet weight range of the 102 gr .380 loads I often use in my LCP's (when I'm not carrying 85gr or 90gr JHP's).
Controllability & accuracy ... and placement, placement, placement. Regardless of the caliber or capacity. Did I mention the principle of TANSTAAFL?
Just my thoughts, which admittedly have been heavily influenced by my prior LE career, and having trained & served as a firearms instructor for 26+ years of that time. It leaves a mark.
Fastbolt
Member
During our service revolver days I carried spare 158gr LSWCHP or Nyclad +P loads for that use. Seemed to work just fine ... with proper aiming and accuracy.
No longer served in assignments where I needed to dispatch severely injured deer when I was later carrying issued 9, .40 or .45 weapons. That was up to the uniformed guys & gals.smoothshooter
Member
Not exactly true. Well-trained people still miss a lot. Maybe not as much as those less skilled.
A lot of people get shot every year by people with few skills and no training.
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SGT ROCK 11B
Member
Remember the Caliber Press Street Survival Seminars?
Street Survival Seminar 2024 – Calibre Press
Professional Training will give an Armed Person a better response to the "Fight or Flight" Response.
We had a thread on this last month.
https://smith-wessonforum.com/concealed-carry-self-defense/729039-surrender-your-gun.html?highlight=surrender
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Jeff Napoleoni
Member
For my m 19-3 4" I shoot WC all the time. I was loading 2.x+gn IMR red with Acme coated DBWC 158gn. I load a little hot with WC's since I had a squib or 2. It's cheap to shoot and my girlfriend likes less recoil. All I ever shoot out of it are magnum reloads, fun.
How about these?
Unfortunately no longer made by Federal but my two boxes should last me.
Unfortunately no longer made by Federal but my two boxes should last me.
Yes, I agree with you!
I apologize for my post being not being written clearly. I was referring to people who I knew would read my comments about typical armed confrontations resulting in about 50% misses of the entire target, and thinking that couldn't possibly include them.
I'm surprised those Federals are discontinued. I also have a couple boxes of them somewhere.
Very reminiscent of the guys who used to load HBWC upside down for their 38 spl SD. I wonder how reliably those spread? My take on that has always been that if it had been worthwhile, it would've seen commercial loads, but not sure how true that actually is.
Very reminiscent of the guys who used to load HBWC upside down for their 38 spl SD. I wonder how reliably those spread? My take on that has always been that if it had been worthwhile, it would've seen commercial loads, but not sure how true that actually is.
ggibson511960
Member
Back in the dark ages of the 1970's I fiddled around with non-standard loads. The popular notion was to load HBWC's upside down for close range social work. I'm not sure why, but I rolled up a few and stoked my cheapo Charter Arms Undercover with them to carry duck hunting. Of all the strange problems, we had armadillos rambling around in our blinds and spreads, annoying and distracting. I let one particularly offensive dillo get withing spitting distance before whacking him with the HBWC. It made a real mess, punching completely through the armor plated varmint and stringing entrails out the exit hole. He still ran off, but that was the goal. Very scientific proof test.
OP
How about these?
Unfortunately no longer made by Federal but my two boxes should last me.
These loads were mentioned in one of the videos I watched. They said Federal had a difficult time with the consistency of the design. So they discontinued it.
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