Wadcutters For Snubbies

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Yes, too many new shooters do not understand, as Ed McGivern, Bill Jordan, Charlie Askins , Jeff Coopers, Jim Cirillo and so many others have told us that being a good defensive/combat shooter starts with being a good shooter and that skill is only gained through old fashioned pistol marksmanship practice.

 

[rockquarry]

Yes, too many new shooters do not understand, as Ed McGivern, Bill Jordan, Charlie Askins , Jeff Coopers, Jim Cirillo and so many others have told us that being a good defensive/combat shooter starts with being a good shooter and that skill is only gained through old fashioned pistol marksmanship practice.

Requires too much time and effort for a lot of today's shooters, many of whom think gadgetry and gimmicks will make up for a lack of skill. Furthermore, minimal practice, up very close will keep a shooter's shortcomings hidden.

In all the concealed carry and dream world gunfighting threads, marksmanship is seldom mentioned, perhaps in 5% of the commentaries. That shows how important the topic is to many. Some may counter by saying it's presumed shooters have good skills, but no such thing can be presumed.

 

[NYlakesider]

Interesting, especially when one considers that the PPC course of fire requires multiples of 6 shots and your buddy was shooting a 5 shot revolver. That wouldn't win anything in any matches that I shot back in the day.

Well Mike your right about the course . I never said he won, I said he made some people take notice. I will say he did all right and if I remember correctly he shot in the top 30%. Not bad for the serious handicap he shot under. It was a club match and not a registered shoot and he had a bit of fun.

He loaded from speedloaders of course and carried the 6th shots loose in his pocket tee shirt.

 

[AJ]

Yes, too many new shooters do not understand, as Ed McGivern, Bill Jordan, Charlie Askins , Jeff Coopers, Jim Cirillo and so many others have told us that being a good defensive/combat shooter starts with being a good shooter and that skill is only gained through old fashioned pistol marksmanship practice.

I keep saying shot placement is the key to any shooting, be it defensive, offensive, hunting critters, target shooting or just plain plinking. Had a guy that was brought to a friend & I and asked to learn to shoot like we did. Tried to explain we got to be able to shoot like we do through practice and lots of it. He figured he could just buy better equipment and he would be able to outscore us. Never could and would not or could not understand why.

Requires too much time and effort for a lot of today's shooters, many of whom think gadgetry and gimmicks will make up for a lack of skill. Furthermore, minimal practice, up very close will keep a shooter's shortcomings hidden.

In all the concealed carry and dream world gunfighting threads, marksmanship is seldom mentioned, perhaps in 5% of the commentaries. That shows how important the topic is to many. Some may counter by saying it's presumed shooters have good skills, but no such thing can be presumed.

A lot of the guys think that the laser, red dots and the like are the answer to shooting well. I tell them to learn on iron sights. Once you have a good understanding of those and can get good scores with those, then move on to the other optics. I also remind them when the batteries die, so does their sight picture. Feel safer with irons on a handgun.

 

[Sgt. Buzzard]

Well Mike your right about the course . I never said he won, I said he made some people take notice. I will say he did all right and if I remember correctly he shot in the top 30%. Not bad for the serious handicap he shot under. It was a club match and not a registered shoot and he had a bit of fun.

He loaded from speedloaders of course and carried the 6th shots loose in his pocket tee shirt.

When I read this the other day, I didn't think a thing of it. I attended police academy in 1973. It was a model 10 and a NYPD holster with bullet loops.

On the range, reloads were part of the timing and doing partial reloads with proper indexing was tested as well. This had to be automatic in a SHTF situation. Knowing this is why I sold my Colt DS and went to a J frame as back up.. Similar manual of arms under high stress avoids errors.

This is the sort of training some of us revolver guys had drummed into us from day one. Working OTJ in a inner city reinforced that training.

To this day I still won't own a Colt and I always do reloads from speed strips on the range and practice partial as well. I'm 75 with arthritic hands but can reload a J frame like my life depends on it.

This background is also why I can't relate to those who have a carry rotation of half dozen different weapons. KISS.

 

[rockquarry]

When I read this the other day, I didn't think a thing of it. I attended police academy in 1973. It was a model 10 and a NYPD holster with bullet loops.

On the range, reloads were part of the timing and doing partial reloads with proper indexing was tested as well. This had to be automatic in a SHTF situation. Knowing this is why I sold my Colt DS and went to a J frame as back up.. Similar manual of arms under high stress avoids errors.

This is the sort of training some of us revolver guys had drummed into us from day one. Working OTJ in a inner city reinforced that training.

To this day I still won't own a Colt and I always do reloads from speed strips on the range and practice partial as well. I'm 75 with arthritic hands but can reload a J frame like my life depends on it.

This background is also why I can't relate to those who have a carry rotation of half dozen different weapons. KISS.

Yes, the rotators practice a regimen that is also difficult for me to understand as well. Simplicity of carry is apparently not something they consider. It puts them in the league of hobby carriers. That's okay, regrettably, but it's their choice.

 

[AJ]

Yes, the rotators practice a regimen that is also difficult for me to understand as well. Simplicity of carry is apparently not something they consider. It puts them in the league of hobby carriers. That's okay, regrettably, but it's their choice.

Have always said that a man with one gun normally shoots it better than a man with many guns. He knows his gun better. The man with many guns has to remember which one he has at the moment and the idiosyncrasies of that piece.

 

[gerhard1]

A single hit is worth any number of misses.
And it doesn't make a particle of difference what round is used.
A .22 rf, .25acp, .32acp, a .380, or a slow lead.38 sp. wadcutter. through a tender spot (like the BG's face) will get the message across, and may take all the fight out of him. 2 or 3 similar hits may confirm it. Rat/snake shot will slow 'em down quite a bit as well, but it won't make a big bloody wound channel, and won't dispatch 'em permanently.
A defensive shooting ought to be convincing at least, if not deadly.
I load 148gr. hollow base wadcutters for all the .38 specials on the pile. They are not really stout, but they handle well. There was some talk a while back about HBWC loaded backwards to create a cup-point. Like a flyin' ashtray at about 800-900fps.
My loads handle nearly the same as the Federal Nyclad HPs. I have some of those in 125, 148, & 158 gr. I haven't seen any on the shelf around here for ages.

I agree in part and disagree in part with the part that I highlighted. Agree wholeheartedly with that statement that "A single hit is worth any number of misses."

Here is what I tend to disagree with. "And it doesn't make a particle of difference what round is used." In my view, it does, but not as much many think that it does.

Alway assuming that they can't be avoided in the first place, the ammo that is used is the least important factor in winning gunfights, being far less important than mental preparation, sound tactics, and bullet placement. It is a factor but it is way down on the list, in my view.

I hope this was helpful.

This thread might interest some of the posters on this thread.

Factors in Surviving Gunfights

 

[jmace57]

My EDC is a mid-60's Model 36 using 148 grain wadcutters.

 

[smoothshooter]

Nothing fancy for testing. Just want to make they are accurate.

Accuracy is not really an issue for defensive use. We’re talking about only a few feet between shooter and target. You don’t even need rifling in the barrel.

 

[smoothshooter]

Have always said that a man with one gun normally shoots it better than a man with many guns. He knows his gun better. The man with many guns has to remember which one he has at the moment and the idiosyncrasies of that piece.

Many of the criminals were taken at close range with a 12 ga. slug to the head. I don't recall that the stakeout squad used reloads in their handguns for duty. Maybe you could enlighten me with a quote from one of his books.

I remember reading in Cirrilo’s book that he and bis partner used semi-wadcutters in their .45 ACP auto pistols, and (I think) full wadcutters in their revolvers.

 

[smoothshooter]

Have always said that a man with one gun normally shoots it better than a man with many guns. He knows his gun better. The man with many guns has to remember which one he has at the moment and the idiosyncrasies of that piece.

Many of the criminals were taken at close range with a 12 ga. slug to the head. I don't recall that the stakeout squad used reloads in their handguns for duty. Maybe you could enlighten me with a quote from one of his books.

He also wrote that one of the most effective rounds ever was a 110 grain jacketed soft point fired out of an M-1 Carbine.

 

[sigp220.45]

I would bet that a guy with one gun doesn’t shoot very well at all. Its probably in a sock drawer or closet and has never been fired.

 

[pasound]

My second choice is Winchester 110gr 38 Silvertips, not +P. Shoots to nearly the same POI as wadcutters, a bit faster. I practice with my snubbies with both.

 

[BE Mike]

My second choice is Winchester 110gr 38 Silvertips, not +P. Shoots to nearly the same POI as wadcutters, a bit faster. I practice with my snubbies with both.

I know of an agency, way back in the day, that issued their first hollow points that were 110 gr. in .38 SPL caliber. After an in the field shooting incident where the 110 gr. thirty eight loads failed to stop, the agency went to 125 gr. JHP in .357 magnum. There were no complaints after that, but transitioning to semi-autos, not too long after the final transition, made it a moot point.

 

[otis24]

If I were to carry a snubbie again, it would probably be stoked with wadcutters. Particularly Precision One copper/copper coated wadcutters.

 

[Nevada Ed]

In my M49 snub nose with a 148 BBwc , oal 1.25" my loads were;
Bullseye 3.3 @ 752fps
W231 ..... 3.8 @ 755
Green Dot 3.7 @ 788
that gave 5 shots at 1.31" or better off hand at 10 feet, slow fire.

Bullseye and w231 at 830fps had major recoil but less accuracy
in my light weight J frame.

I also like the lead 158 for target work but tend to slide to the
HST 130 for my SD work, over ALL the bullets that I have tested in my 60 years.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

I would bet that a guy with one gun doesn’t shoot very well at all. Its probably in a sock drawer or closet and has never been fired.

I'll take that bet. Because it is a 50/50.

The person with one handgun can be somebody who does keep a handgun in the sock drawer. But I worked with cops who were one handgun owners too. They were great shooters.

Of course I knew people who had Gun Safes full of handguns and they were not great with any of them. The jack of all trades, master of none Principle.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

I know of an agency, way back in the day, that issued their first hollow points that were 110 gr. in .38 SPL caliber. After an in the field shooting incident where the 110 gr. thirty eight loads failed to stop,

... the agency went to 125 gr. JHP in .357 magnum. There were no complaints after that,

Didn't Super Vel had a 110 JHP in +P+?

The 125 JHP in .357 Magnum at a quoted 1450 fps was the Death Ray of the 1970s & 1980s according to the Gun Magazine writers as I recall.

 

[BabaBlueJay]

A lot of people are getting hot and bothered by this. I think OP should carry the ammo he trusts, and we should all do the same. This topic comes up all the time, with ¨ What about this ammo, or that ammo for this gun or barrel length¨ While I agree we should try and get every advantage we can, I think if we are honest with ourselves our ammo choice will probably not be high on the list of the things that save us in the extremely remote chance we have to shoot in self-defense.

I think what is far more important is regular training, taking quality classes, being in shape (as possible), and being aware of your surroundings. I used to care a lot more about bullets until I realized most defensive loads are fine if I do my part. I think that is the key, do your part, pick what you are confident in, and go about your day.