Wadcutters For Snubbies

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Yes, too many new shooters do not understand, as Ed McGivern, Bill Jordan, Charlie Askins , Jeff Coopers, Jim Cirillo and so many others have told us that being a good defensive/combat shooter starts with being a good shooter and that skill is only gained through old fashioned pistol marksmanship practice.

 

[rockquarry]

Yes, too many new shooters do not understand, as Ed McGivern, Bill Jordan, Charlie Askins , Jeff Coopers, Jim Cirillo and so many others have told us that being a good defensive/combat shooter starts with being a good shooter and that skill is only gained through old fashioned pistol marksmanship practice.

Requires too much time and effort for a lot of today's shooters, many of whom think gadgetry and gimmicks will make up for a lack of skill. Furthermore, minimal practice, up very close will keep a shooter's shortcomings hidden.

In all the concealed carry and dream world gunfighting threads, marksmanship is seldom mentioned, perhaps in 5% of the commentaries. That shows how important the topic is to many. Some may counter by saying it's presumed shooters have good skills, but no such thing can be presumed.

 

[NYlakesider]

Interesting, especially when one considers that the PPC course of fire requires multiples of 6 shots and your buddy was shooting a 5 shot revolver. That wouldn't win anything in any matches that I shot back in the day.

Well Mike your right about the course . I never said he won, I said he made some people take notice. I will say he did all right and if I remember correctly he shot in the top 30%. Not bad for the serious handicap he shot under. It was a club match and not a registered shoot and he had a bit of fun.

He loaded from speedloaders of course and carried the 6th shots loose in his pocket tee shirt.

 

[AJ]

Yes, too many new shooters do not understand, as Ed McGivern, Bill Jordan, Charlie Askins , Jeff Coopers, Jim Cirillo and so many others have told us that being a good defensive/combat shooter starts with being a good shooter and that skill is only gained through old fashioned pistol marksmanship practice.

I keep saying shot placement is the key to any shooting, be it defensive, offensive, hunting critters, target shooting or just plain plinking. Had a guy that was brought to a friend & I and asked to learn to shoot like we did. Tried to explain we got to be able to shoot like we do through practice and lots of it. He figured he could just buy better equipment and he would be able to outscore us. Never could and would not or could not understand why.

Requires too much time and effort for a lot of today's shooters, many of whom think gadgetry and gimmicks will make up for a lack of skill. Furthermore, minimal practice, up very close will keep a shooter's shortcomings hidden.

In all the concealed carry and dream world gunfighting threads, marksmanship is seldom mentioned, perhaps in 5% of the commentaries. That shows how important the topic is to many. Some may counter by saying it's presumed shooters have good skills, but no such thing can be presumed.

A lot of the guys think that the laser, red dots and the like are the answer to shooting well. I tell them to learn on iron sights. Once you have a good understanding of those and can get good scores with those, then move on to the other optics. I also remind them when the batteries die, so does their sight picture. Feel safer with irons on a handgun.

 

[Sgt. Buzzard]

Well Mike your right about the course . I never said he won, I said he made some people take notice. I will say he did all right and if I remember correctly he shot in the top 30%. Not bad for the serious handicap he shot under. It was a club match and not a registered shoot and he had a bit of fun.

He loaded from speedloaders of course and carried the 6th shots loose in his pocket tee shirt.

When I read this the other day, I didn't think a thing of it. I attended police academy in 1973. It was a model 10 and a NYPD holster with bullet loops.

On the range, reloads were part of the timing and doing partial reloads with proper indexing was tested as well. This had to be automatic in a SHTF situation. Knowing this is why I sold my Colt DS and went to a J frame as back up.. Similar manual of arms under high stress avoids errors.

This is the sort of training some of us revolver guys had drummed into us from day one. Working OTJ in a inner city reinforced that training.

To this day I still won't own a Colt and I always do reloads from speed strips on the range and practice partial as well. I'm 75 with arthritic hands but can reload a J frame like my life depends on it.

This background is also why I can't relate to those who have a carry rotation of half dozen different weapons. KISS.

 

[rockquarry]

When I read this the other day, I didn't think a thing of it. I attended police academy in 1973. It was a model 10 and a NYPD holster with bullet loops.

On the range, reloads were part of the timing and doing partial reloads with proper indexing was tested as well. This had to be automatic in a SHTF situation. Knowing this is why I sold my Colt DS and went to a J frame as back up.. Similar manual of arms under high stress avoids errors.

This is the sort of training some of us revolver guys had drummed into us from day one. Working OTJ in a inner city reinforced that training.

To this day I still won't own a Colt and I always do reloads from speed strips on the range and practice partial as well. I'm 75 with arthritic hands but can reload a J frame like my life depends on it.

This background is also why I can't relate to those who have a carry rotation of half dozen different weapons. KISS.

Yes, the rotators practice a regimen that is also difficult for me to understand as well. Simplicity of carry is apparently not something they consider. It puts them in the league of hobby carriers. That's okay, regrettably, but it's their choice.

 

[AJ]

Yes, the rotators practice a regimen that is also difficult for me to understand as well. Simplicity of carry is apparently not something they consider. It puts them in the league of hobby carriers. That's okay, regrettably, but it's their choice.

Have always said that a man with one gun normally shoots it better than a man with many guns. He knows his gun better. The man with many guns has to remember which one he has at the moment and the idiosyncrasies of that piece.

 

[gerhard1]

A single hit is worth any number of misses.
And it doesn't make a particle of difference what round is used.
A .22 rf, .25acp, .32acp, a .380, or a slow lead.38 sp. wadcutter. through a tender spot (like the BG's face) will get the message across, and may take all the fight out of him. 2 or 3 similar hits may confirm it. Rat/snake shot will slow 'em down quite a bit as well, but it won't make a big bloody wound channel, and won't dispatch 'em permanently.
A defensive shooting ought to be convincing at least, if not deadly.
I load 148gr. hollow base wadcutters for all the .38 specials on the pile. They are not really stout, but they handle well. There was some talk a while back about HBWC loaded backwards to create a cup-point. Like a flyin' ashtray at about 800-900fps.
My loads handle nearly the same as the Federal Nyclad HPs. I have some of those in 125, 148, & 158 gr. I haven't seen any on the shelf around here for ages.

I agree in part and disagree in part with the part that I highlighted. Agree wholeheartedly with that statement that "A single hit is worth any number of misses."

Here is what I tend to disagree with. "And it doesn't make a particle of difference what round is used." In my view, it does, but not as much many think that it does.

Alway assuming that they can't be avoided in the first place, the ammo that is used is the least important factor in winning gunfights, being far less important than mental preparation, sound tactics, and bullet placement. It is a factor but it is way down on the list, in my view.

I hope this was helpful.

This thread might interest some of the posters on this thread.

Factors in Surviving Gunfights

 

[jmace57]

My EDC is a mid-60's Model 36 using 148 grain wadcutters.

 

[smoothshooter]

Nothing fancy for testing. Just want to make they are accurate.

Accuracy is not really an issue for defensive use. We're talking about only a few feet between shooter and target. You don't even need rifling in the barrel.

 

[smoothshooter]

Have always said that a man with one gun normally shoots it better than a man with many guns. He knows his gun better. The man with many guns has to remember which one he has at the moment and the idiosyncrasies of that piece.

Many of the criminals were taken at close range with a 12 ga. slug to the head. I don't recall that the stakeout squad used reloads in their handguns for duty. Maybe you could enlighten me with a quote from one of his books.

I remember reading in Cirrilo's book that he and bis partner used semi-wadcutters in their .45 ACP auto pistols, and (I think) full wadcutters in their revolvers.

 

[smoothshooter]

Have always said that a man with one gun normally shoots it better than a man with many guns. He knows his gun better. The man with many guns has to remember which one he has at the moment and the idiosyncrasies of that piece.

Many of the criminals were taken at close range with a 12 ga. slug to the head. I don't recall that the stakeout squad used reloads in their handguns for duty. Maybe you could enlighten me with a quote from one of his books.

He also wrote that one of the most effective rounds ever was a 110 grain jacketed soft point fired out of an M-1 Carbine.

 

[sigp220.45]

I would bet that a guy with one gun doesn't shoot very well at all. Its probably in a sock drawer or closet and has never been fired.

 

[pasound]

My second choice is Winchester 110gr 38 Silvertips, not +P. Shoots to nearly the same POI as wadcutters, a bit faster. I practice with my snubbies with both.

 

[BE Mike]

My second choice is Winchester 110gr 38 Silvertips, not +P. Shoots to nearly the same POI as wadcutters, a bit faster. I practice with my snubbies with both.

I know of an agency, way back in the day, that issued their first hollow points that were 110 gr. in .38 SPL caliber. After an in the field shooting incident where the 110 gr. thirty eight loads failed to stop, the agency went to 125 gr. JHP in .357 magnum. There were no complaints after that, but transitioning to semi-autos, not too long after the final transition, made it a moot point.

 

[otis24]

If I were to carry a snubbie again, it would probably be stoked with wadcutters. Particularly Precision One copper/copper coated wadcutters.

 

[Nevada Ed]

In my M49 snub nose with a 148 BBwc , oal 1.25" my loads were;
Bullseye 3.3 @ 752fps
W231 ..... 3.8 @ 755
Green Dot 3.7 @ 788
that gave 5 shots at 1.31" or better off hand at 10 feet, slow fire.

Bullseye and w231 at 830fps had major recoil but less accuracy
in my light weight J frame.

I also like the lead 158 for target work but tend to slide to the
HST 130 for my SD work, over ALL the bullets that I have tested in my 60 years.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

I would bet that a guy with one gun doesn't shoot very well at all. Its probably in a sock drawer or closet and has never been fired.

I'll take that bet. Because it is a 50/50.

The person with one handgun can be somebody who does keep a handgun in the sock drawer. But I worked with cops who were one handgun owners too. They were great shooters.

Of course I knew people who had Gun Safes full of handguns and they were not great with any of them. The jack of all trades, master of none Principle.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

I know of an agency, way back in the day, that issued their first hollow points that were 110 gr. in .38 SPL caliber. After an in the field shooting incident where the 110 gr. thirty eight loads failed to stop,

... the agency went to 125 gr. JHP in .357 magnum. There were no complaints after that,

Didn't Super Vel had a 110 JHP in +P+?

The 125 JHP in .357 Magnum at a quoted 1450 fps was the Death Ray of the 1970s & 1980s according to the Gun Magazine writers as I recall.

 

[BabaBlueJay]

A lot of people are getting hot and bothered by this. I think OP should carry the ammo he trusts, and we should all do the same. This topic comes up all the time, with ¨ What about this ammo, or that ammo for this gun or barrel length¨ While I agree we should try and get every advantage we can, I think if we are honest with ourselves our ammo choice will probably not be high on the list of the things that save us in the extremely remote chance we have to shoot in self-defense.

I think what is far more important is regular training, taking quality classes, being in shape (as possible), and being aware of your surroundings. I used to care a lot more about bullets until I realized most defensive loads are fine if I do my part. I think that is the key, do your part, pick what you are confident in, and go about your day.

 

[rockquarry]

Didn't Super Vel had a 110 JHP in +P+?

The 125 JHP in .357 Magnum at a quoted 1450 fps was the Death Ray of the 1970s & 1980s according to the Gun Magazine writers as I recall.

I don't know when the original Super Vel was discontinued, but around 1970 before there were any +P and +P+ designations, the .38 Special 110 Super Vel JHP was very popular. It's actual velocity was considerably less than what was advertised, but it was still a pretty warm loading, though not as warm as the 110 Norma and 125 Remington.

 

[BE Mike]

I don't know when the original Super Vel was discontinued, but around 1970 before there were any +P and +P+ designations, the .38 Special 110 Super Vel JHP was very popular. It's actual velocity was considerably less than what was advertised, but it was still a pretty warm loading, though not as warm as the 110 Norma and 125 Remington.

The only Super Vel ammo that I am personally familiar with is the .357 mag. 137 gr. JSP. It was very effective out of a 4" revolver.

 

[rockquarry]

The only Super Vel ammo that I am personally familiar with is the .357 mag. 137 gr. JSP. It was very effective out of a 4" revolver.

Yes, but as is customary with such threads as this one, many like to argue based only on their obsessions. However, keeping simplicity and effectiveness in the forefront, are there really any bad defensive loads for the .357?

I'm assuming good marksmanship skills here, maybe something that shouldn't be assumed.

 

[Snub Nose Sasquatch]

Underwood or Buffalo Bore .38 Special wadcutters. Any recommendations?

 

[pasound]

Either. They are very equal in performance and velocity.

 

[shawn mccarver]

If wadcutters were the best choice, it seems testing would have revealed it decades ago, and the WC would have been adopted by large agencies due to the mild charge, low recoil, target grade accuracy, and lower cost.

Instead, the FBI finally settled on the 158 grain "FBI Load" (158 rain lead hollow point at +P velocity), and then finally, the 147 grain JHP +P. After using 158 grain LRN, then 158 grain SWC, NYPD finally settled, after extensive testing, on the 135 Gold Dot Short Barrel.

This topic comes up constantly here and on the "Snub Noir" site, and I often wonder if folks just want reassurance that what they carry will work.

So, if carrying a target load makes you feel more confident, it is a free country. For my purposes, however, what makes me feel more confident is a tried and proven load, and both the FBI Load (also called the Chicago Load or the St. Louis Load) and the GDSB from Speer both have real and extensive track records. I will stay with those, thank you very much.

Remember what Jeff Cooper said about the .45 ACP on the range at Gunsite: "we make no foolishness about using reduced power loads, we use only a full-power load, a fight stopping load."

Makes more sense to me.

 

[Frailer]

If wadcutters were the best choice, it seems testing would have revealed it decades ago, and the WC would have been adopted by large agencies due to the mild charge, low recoil, target grade accuracy, and lower cost.

Instead, the FBI finally settled on the 158 grain "FBI Load" (158 rain lead hollow point at +P velocity), and then finally, the 147 grain JHP +P. After using 158 grain LRN, then 158 grain SWC, NYPD finally settled, after extensive testing, on the 135 Gold Dot Short Barrel.

This topic comes up constantly here and on the "Snub Noir" site, and I often wonder if folks just want reassurance that what they carry will work.

So, if carrying a target load makes you feel more confident, it is a free country. For my purposes, however, what makes me feel more confident is a tried and proven load, and both the FBI Load (also called the Chicago Load or the St. Louis Load) and the GDSB from Speer both have real and extensive track records. I will stay with those, thank you very much.

Remember what Jeff Cooper said about the .45 ACP on the range at Gunsite: "we make no foolishness about using reduced power loads, we use only a full-power load, a fight stopping load."

Makes more sense to me.

Your logic is sound.

That said, we're talking about snub revolvers here. Ideally we want a round to expand, but sometimes with short-barreled guns that doesn't happen. In those cases a round that cuts a full-diameter hole is preferable to a round-nose projectile that produces sub-caliber holes as tissue in the wound channel is stretched.

For my part, I typically carry 135 Gold Dot SB rounds, but if that weren't available for some reason I'd feel perfectly comfortable with a standard pressure wadcutter. I load 148 DEWCs over 3.3gr of Bullseye, and I feel (with absolutely zero empirical evidence to support my opinion) they would be acceptable in this role.

I appreciate the fact they this thread has been civil for the most part. To quote the oft-used phrase, "All handgun rounds suck." As such, getting one's panties in a twist over what is "best" is largely pointless. Where the bullet goes trumps the type of bullet every single time.

 

[Kanewpadle]

If wadcutters were the best choice, it seems testing would have revealed it decades ago, and the WC would have been adopted by large agencies due to the mild charge, low recoil, target grade accuracy, and lower cost.

Instead, the FBI finally settled on the 158 grain "FBI Load" (158 rain lead hollow point at +P velocity), and then finally, the 147 grain JHP +P. After using 158 grain LRN, then 158 grain SWC, NYPD finally settled, after extensive testing, on the 135 Gold Dot Short Barrel.

This topic comes up constantly here and on the "Snub Noir" site, and I often wonder if folks just want reassurance that what they carry will work.

So, if carrying a target load makes you feel more confident, it is a free country. For my purposes, however, what makes me feel more confident is a tried and proven load, and both the FBI Load (also called the Chicago Load or the St. Louis Load) and the GDSB from Speer both have real and extensive track records. I will stay with those, thank you very much.

Remember what Jeff Cooper said about the .45 ACP on the range at Gunsite: "we make no foolishness about using reduced power loads, we use only a full-power load, a fight stopping load."

Makes more sense to me.

It has revealed itself. But like most people that fail to do any research or study the subject, you fail to provide any research to support your claim.

 

[BE Mike]

It has revealed itself. But like most people that fail to do any research or study the subject, you fail to provide any research to support your claim.

To me, the effectiveness of the .38 SPL is on the shoulders of those who tout it. I don't know of any handgun hunters who have used it on animals much bigger than a jackrabbit.

 

[Piwo]

Whenever I hear about using target swaged lead wadcutters in a snubby 38 it is usually in the context of being a compromise. It is a load to be used when one can't handle the recoil of a full charge load. That is how I view it. You are getting 38 S&W(NOT 38 spl.) ballistics with an improved shaped bullet over the standard 146 gr. round nose. Perhaps good for very close range if you can place them and better than nothing. This is very different than a hard cast full wadcutter loaded to full charge. Those make more sense, but are not reduced in recoil.

Regarding compromise...If I was having an issue with recoil in a J frame I would look to other factors to mitigate recoil before I would power down my ammo. For example, I might go with better grips or a lighter bullet(full charge) first. Perhaps even a steel frame. I had a neighbor who bought a 642 as her first gun for ccw. She was very petite and couldn't really conceal or carry anything bigger or heavier. She couldn't tolerate all the plus p and heavy 38 spl, defense loads that the gun store sold her. I installed a set of Hogue grips and had her buy some 95 grain Hornady FTX ammo. It was night and day. She could actually practice enough with it and she could handle the recoil. A compromise to be sure but one she could live with. I'm not saying target level soft wadcutters are useless. But for me, I would explore other options first. Just my 2 cents.