Wadcutters For Snubbies

One should generally not count on expansion with a .38, especially from a snobby. The WC/SWC shape is a good choice because there is no reliance on expansion. A snubby is generally a BUG and use at contact/near contact range, so the WC is decent for the purpose.
As for accuracy - it does matter for two reasons. The first is that a huge factor in effectiveness is placement, especially when one considers that a handgun generally is not a good defensive choice compared to a rifle. The other is that every round we send down range needs to hit the intended target and not someone/something else. I don't worry much about over penetration. I do worry about missing.
 
Whenever I hear about using target swaged lead wadcutters in a snubby 38 it is usually in the context of being a compromise. It is a load to be used when one can't handle the recoil of a full charge load. That is how I view it. You are getting 38 S&W(NOT 38 spl.) ballistics with an improved shaped bullet over the standard 146 gr. round nose. Perhaps good for very close range if you can place them and better than nothing. This is very different than a hard cast full wadcutter loaded to full charge. Those make more sense, but are not reduced in recoil.

Regarding compromise...If I was having an issue with recoil in a J frame I would look to other factors to mitigate recoil before I would power down my ammo. For example, I might go with better grips or a lighter bullet(full charge) first. Perhaps even a steel frame. I had a neighbor who bought a 642 as her first gun for ccw. She was very petite and couldn't really conceal or carry anything bigger or heavier. She couldn't tolerate all the plus p and heavy 38 spl, defense loads that the gun store sold her. I installed a set of Hogue grips and had her buy some 95 grain Hornady FTX ammo. It was night and day. She could actually practice enough with it and she could handle the recoil. A compromise to be sure but one she could live with. I'm not saying target level soft wadcutters are useless. But for me, I would explore other options first. Just my 2 cents.

It's not about recoil. It's about bullet performance.

By your logic we should carry 357 snubbies and shoot full power loads IF we can handle the recoil.

Shot placement and penetration has always been the most important. Expansion was never a thing until expanding bullets were designed and introduced.
 
I don't carry handloads for defense. Underwood makes a 1000 fps hard cast wadcutter that weighs 150 grains. It shoots point of aim in my fixed sight guns. Recoils less than the 158 gr LSWCHP +P I carried for years. I would ride the river with either load, but of late the lower recoil of the Underwood loads get the nod.
 

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I don't carry handloads for defense. Underwood makes a 1000 fps hard cast wadcutter that weighs 150 grains. It shoots point of aim in my fixed sight guns. Recoils less than the 158 gr LSWCHP +P I carried for years. I would ride the river with either load, but of late the lower recoil of the Underwood loads get the nod.

That Colt is sharp!
Took me a sec to find the 6th hole.
 
I don't carry handloads for defense. Underwood makes a 1000 fps hard cast wadcutter that weighs 150 grains. It shoots point of aim in my fixed sight guns. Recoils less than the 158 gr LSWCHP +P I carried for years. I would ride the river with either load, but of late the lower recoil of the Underwood loads get the nod.
I don't know anyone who has actually, "rode the river" who carried wadcutters for personal defense. Some liked to give jackrabbits pierced ears with them.
 
Accuracy is not really an issue for defensive use. We're talking about only a few feet between shooter and target. You don't even need rifling in the barrel.

That right there.

Remember that about 50% of shots fired in an average self-defense situation do not even hit the their intended target. :eek: Of course, that doesn't include YOU!!! ;)
 
A lot of people are getting hot and bothered by this. I think OP should carry the ammo he trusts, and we should all do the same. This topic comes up all the time, with ¨ What about this ammo, or that ammo for this gun or barrel length¨ While I agree we should try and get every advantage we can, I think if we are honest with ourselves our ammo choice will probably not be high on the list of the things that save us in the extremely remote chance we have to shoot in self-defense.

I think what is far more important is regular training, taking quality classes, being in shape (as possible), and being aware of your surroundings. I used to care a lot more about bullets until I realized most defensive loads are fine if I do my part. I think that is the key, do your part, pick what you are confident in, and go about your day.

Almost always, when you poke holes in somebody with bullets, they will go away.
 
This is a discussion I've seen over and over again on firearm forums and IRL over the years. It always seems to turn into a discussion of people who are ignorant about 38 spl against people who are knowledgeable about 38 spl, and quite often the ignorant people keep spouting myths.

Training and shot placement are king. The round doesn't matter if all you can do is keep missing. You can't expect a red dot or a laser to save the day for you, when you haven't practiced enough to keep the barrel straight and steady. You can't expect a certain type of round to do it's job, if you haven't taken the time to learn how to shoot that round.

If you're claiming a snubby isn't good past "bad breath distance", you probably haven't trained for very long with one. Ditto if you think 38spl is only good for shooting jack rabits or that a winter coat will stop it.

38spl is probably the most versatile round out there, but current manufacturers keep them underpowered for some reason. I suggest anyone who's serious about snubs and 38spl learn to hand load, and look at recipes from the days of yore. There are also quite a few SD rounds out there that expand reliably from a short barrel, even if clogged by 4 layers of denim for some reason. Remington Golden Saber is one, for instance. There's a plethora of testing vids available online, and if someone is looking for an ammo brand I'd suggest starting there if you're not willing or unable to do it yourself.

While I don't carry wadcutters, they have been proven to create an open wound channel that doesn't automatically close behind it, like a round nose or unexpanded hollow point round usually will. Are they the best out there? Probably not, but I'd rather carry a strong WC load than a round nose or flat point FMJ or lead round. If that was all I had, I would be okay with it.

If I'm carrying in regular life, my 442 or 637 PC is loaded with the aforementioned Remington Golden Saber 125gr +P. If I'm hiking or camping, it's loaded with Hardcast Keith 158gr +P loads, either from Underwood or ones that I've loaded myself.
 
This is a discussion I've seen over and over again on firearm forums and IRL over the years. It always seems to turn into a discussion of people who are ignorant about 38 spl against people who are knowledgeable about 38 spl, and quite often the ignorant people keep spouting myths.

Training and shot placement are king. The round doesn't matter if all you can do is keep missing. You can't expect a red dot or a laser to save the day for you, when you haven't practiced enough to keep the barrel straight and steady. You can't expect a certain type of round to do it's job, if you haven't taken the time to learn how to shoot that round.

If you're claiming a snubby isn't good past "bad breath distance", you probably haven't trained for very long with one. Ditto if you think 38spl is only good for shooting jack rabits or that a winter coat will stop it.

38spl is probably the most versatile round out there, but current manufacturers keep them underpowered for some reason. I suggest anyone who's serious about snubs and 38spl learn to hand load, and look at recipes from the days of yore. There are also quite a few SD rounds out there that expand reliably from a short barrel, even if clogged by 4 layers of denim for some reason. Remington Golden Saber is one, for instance. There's a plethora of testing vids available online, and if someone is looking for an ammo brand I'd suggest starting there if you're not willing or unable to do it yourself.

While I don't carry wadcutters, they have been proven to create an open wound channel that doesn't automatically close behind it, like a round nose or unexpanded hollow point round usually will. Are they the best out there? Probably not, but I'd rather carry a strong WC load than a round nose or flat point FMJ or lead round. If that was all I had, I would be okay with it.

If I'm carrying in regular life, my 442 or 637 PC is loaded with the aforementioned Remington Golden Saber 125gr +P. If I'm hiking or camping, it's loaded with Hardcast Keith 158gr +P loads, either from Underwood or ones that I've loaded myself.

Well said; you bring up some good points.
 
... The 2" .38 +p is more on the .380 side of things, so better to buy an '80s double-stack Beretta.

Yes, no & maybe. It may depend on a couple of things ...


First, the .38SPL may have an advantage when it comes to bullet weight, especially if an expanding JHP is being discussed.

Then, there's also the potential for the frontal shape (meplat) of the non-ex-panded JHP between some .380/.38 bullets, or .380ACP Ball versus a .38SPL WC or SWC.

I once owned a double stack .380 Beretta in the 80's. One of the most annoying guns to shoot because of repeated feeding issues, even when Ball loads were being used.

While the venerable .380 is enjoying a resurgence of popularity because of really diminutive guns, as well as larger double stack guns (attractive to the capacity aficionados), the .380 v. .38 is still an exercise in determining the degree of compromise someone may favor. :)

I acknowledge I picked up a couple LCP's more than 10 years ago, but that was strictly because I was looking for something that would fit into some short & tight front jeans pockets which wouldn't accommodate my J-frames. It helped that I found the LCP's to be virtually as easy to shoot as my assorted J's, at least on the short range qual courses-of-fire we were running for off-duty weapons, mostly being 3-11 or 3-15yds. Personally, I found the J's to be easier to shoot at further distances, but then I wasn't carrying the LCP's for 'distance' options. One of the compromises.

Yes, I remember listening to Gary Roberts' opinion of .380ACP v. 38SPL as secondary and off-duty weapons many years ago. He also told me how he was a fan of the use of 148gr WC being used by cops in Secondary .38SPL snubs, instead of some of the +P loads. He explained his reasoning as having observed some range testing and evaluations of some cops in a pilot program for potential secondary duty weapons.

The cops participating in the program demonstrated noticeably better controllability and accuracy when using the 148gr WC, versus the +P loads initially used in the testing. That gave them better confidence. A user who has experienced consistency of controllability and accuracy can arguably find it to be an advantage when having to suddenly use it under stress.

Now, while I may favor the nose cavity profiles of some of the more modern .38SPL +P loads, I also like how they've been revised to offer the potential for resisting plugging while still offering the potential for robust expansion. That wasn't exactly something offered by the older JHP and LHP loads, especially in 2" snubs.

Basically, I carry one or another of the modern JHP's in both my .380's & .38's, and have invested the range hours and trigger time with an eye to accuracy of placement. My hope is that the slightly heavier bullet weights of the .38SPL would be an advantage, as might their potential for expansion.

TANSTAAFL, though. In my 37DAO snub I stick with standard pressure 110gr loads, which does put it more in the bullet weight range of the 102 gr .380 loads I often use in my LCP's (when I'm not carrying 85gr or 90gr JHP's).

Controllability & accuracy ... and placement, placement, placement. Regardless of the caliber or capacity. Did I mention the principle of TANSTAAFL? ;)

Just my thoughts, which admittedly have been heavily influenced by my prior LE career, and having trained & served as a firearms instructor for 26+ years of that time. It leaves a mark. :cool:
 
Does whitetail deer count?

I put one down with a +P 125 grain JHP from my Model 15.

During our service revolver days I carried spare 158gr LSWCHP or Nyclad +P loads for that use. Seemed to work just fine ... with proper aiming and accuracy. ;) No longer served in assignments where I needed to dispatch severely injured deer when I was later carrying issued 9, .40 or .45 weapons. That was up to the uniformed guys & gals.
 
Not exactly true. Well-trained people still miss a lot. Maybe not as much as those less skilled.
A lot of people get shot every year by people with few skills and no training.

Remember the Caliber Press Street Survival Seminars?
Street Survival Seminar 2024 – Calibre Press

Professional Training will give an Armed Person a better response to the "Fight or Flight" Response.

We had a thread on this last month.
https://smith-wessonforum.com/concealed-carry-self-defense/729039-surrender-your-gun.html?highlight=surrender
 
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For my m 19-3 4" I shoot WC all the time. I was loading 2.x+gn IMR red with Acme coated DBWC 158gn. I load a little hot with WC's since I had a squib or 2. It's cheap to shoot and my girlfriend likes less recoil. All I ever shoot out of it are magnum reloads, fun.
 
Not sure if that means you agree with me or not.

Yes, I agree with you!

I apologize for my post being not being written clearly. I was referring to people who I knew would read my comments about typical armed confrontations resulting in about 50% misses of the entire target, and thinking that couldn't possibly include them. :)
 
I'm surprised those Federals are discontinued. I also have a couple boxes of them somewhere.

Very reminiscent of the guys who used to load HBWC upside down for their 38 spl SD. I wonder how reliably those spread? My take on that has always been that if it had been worthwhile, it would've seen commercial loads, but not sure how true that actually is.
 
Back in the dark ages of the 1970's I fiddled around with non-standard loads. The popular notion was to load HBWC's upside down for close range social work. I'm not sure why, but I rolled up a few and stoked my cheapo Charter Arms Undercover with them to carry duck hunting. Of all the strange problems, we had armadillos rambling around in our blinds and spreads, annoying and distracting. I let one particularly offensive dillo get withing spitting distance before whacking him with the HBWC. It made a real mess, punching completely through the armor plated varmint and stringing entrails out the exit hole. He still ran off, but that was the goal. Very scientific proof test.
 

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