Wadcutters For Snubbies

[rockquarry]

Didn't Super Vel had a 110 JHP in +P+?

The 125 JHP in .357 Magnum at a quoted 1450 fps was the Death Ray of the 1970s & 1980s according to the Gun Magazine writers as I recall.

I don't know when the original Super Vel was discontinued, but around 1970 before there were any +P and +P+ designations, the .38 Special 110 Super Vel JHP was very popular. It's actual velocity was considerably less than what was advertised, but it was still a pretty warm loading, though not as warm as the 110 Norma and 125 Remington.

 

[BE Mike]

I don't know when the original Super Vel was discontinued, but around 1970 before there were any +P and +P+ designations, the .38 Special 110 Super Vel JHP was very popular. It's actual velocity was considerably less than what was advertised, but it was still a pretty warm loading, though not as warm as the 110 Norma and 125 Remington.

The only Super Vel ammo that I am personally familiar with is the .357 mag. 137 gr. JSP. It was very effective out of a 4" revolver.

 

[rockquarry]

The only Super Vel ammo that I am personally familiar with is the .357 mag. 137 gr. JSP. It was very effective out of a 4" revolver.

Yes, but as is customary with such threads as this one, many like to argue based only on their obsessions. However, keeping simplicity and effectiveness in the forefront, are there really any bad defensive loads for the .357?

I'm assuming good marksmanship skills here, maybe something that shouldn't be assumed.

 

[Snub Nose Sasquatch]

Underwood or Buffalo Bore .38 Special wadcutters. Any recommendations?

 

[pasound]

Either. They are very equal in performance and velocity.

 

[shawn mccarver]

If wadcutters were the best choice, it seems testing would have revealed it decades ago, and the WC would have been adopted by large agencies due to the mild charge, low recoil, target grade accuracy, and lower cost.

Instead, the FBI finally settled on the 158 grain "FBI Load" (158 rain lead hollow point at +P velocity), and then finally, the 147 grain JHP +P. After using 158 grain LRN, then 158 grain SWC, NYPD finally settled, after extensive testing, on the 135 Gold Dot Short Barrel.

This topic comes up constantly here and on the "Snub Noir" site, and I often wonder if folks just want reassurance that what they carry will work.

So, if carrying a target load makes you feel more confident, it is a free country. For my purposes, however, what makes me feel more confident is a tried and proven load, and both the FBI Load (also called the Chicago Load or the St. Louis Load) and the GDSB from Speer both have real and extensive track records. I will stay with those, thank you very much.

Remember what Jeff Cooper said about the .45 ACP on the range at Gunsite: "we make no foolishness about using reduced power loads, we use only a full-power load, a fight stopping load."

Makes more sense to me.

 

[Frailer]

If wadcutters were the best choice, it seems testing would have revealed it decades ago, and the WC would have been adopted by large agencies due to the mild charge, low recoil, target grade accuracy, and lower cost.

Instead, the FBI finally settled on the 158 grain "FBI Load" (158 rain lead hollow point at +P velocity), and then finally, the 147 grain JHP +P. After using 158 grain LRN, then 158 grain SWC, NYPD finally settled, after extensive testing, on the 135 Gold Dot Short Barrel.

This topic comes up constantly here and on the "Snub Noir" site, and I often wonder if folks just want reassurance that what they carry will work.

So, if carrying a target load makes you feel more confident, it is a free country. For my purposes, however, what makes me feel more confident is a tried and proven load, and both the FBI Load (also called the Chicago Load or the St. Louis Load) and the GDSB from Speer both have real and extensive track records. I will stay with those, thank you very much.

Remember what Jeff Cooper said about the .45 ACP on the range at Gunsite: "we make no foolishness about using reduced power loads, we use only a full-power load, a fight stopping load."

Makes more sense to me.

Your logic is sound.

That said, we’re talking about snub revolvers here. Ideally we want a round to expand, but sometimes with short-barreled guns that doesn’t happen. In those cases a round that cuts a full-diameter hole is preferable to a round-nose projectile that produces sub-caliber holes as tissue in the wound channel is stretched.

For my part, I typically carry 135 Gold Dot SB rounds, but if that weren’t available for some reason I’d feel perfectly comfortable with a standard pressure wadcutter. I load 148 DEWCs over 3.3gr of Bullseye, and I feel (with absolutely zero empirical evidence to support my opinion) they would be acceptable in this role.

I appreciate the fact they this thread has been civil for the most part. To quote the oft-used phrase, “All handgun rounds suck.” As such, getting one’s panties in a twist over what is “best” is largely pointless. Where the bullet goes trumps the type of bullet every single time.

 

[Kanewpadle]

If wadcutters were the best choice, it seems testing would have revealed it decades ago, and the WC would have been adopted by large agencies due to the mild charge, low recoil, target grade accuracy, and lower cost.

Instead, the FBI finally settled on the 158 grain "FBI Load" (158 rain lead hollow point at +P velocity), and then finally, the 147 grain JHP +P. After using 158 grain LRN, then 158 grain SWC, NYPD finally settled, after extensive testing, on the 135 Gold Dot Short Barrel.

This topic comes up constantly here and on the "Snub Noir" site, and I often wonder if folks just want reassurance that what they carry will work.

So, if carrying a target load makes you feel more confident, it is a free country. For my purposes, however, what makes me feel more confident is a tried and proven load, and both the FBI Load (also called the Chicago Load or the St. Louis Load) and the GDSB from Speer both have real and extensive track records. I will stay with those, thank you very much.

Remember what Jeff Cooper said about the .45 ACP on the range at Gunsite: "we make no foolishness about using reduced power loads, we use only a full-power load, a fight stopping load."

Makes more sense to me.

It has revealed itself. But like most people that fail to do any research or study the subject, you fail to provide any research to support your claim.

 

[BE Mike]

It has revealed itself. But like most people that fail to do any research or study the subject, you fail to provide any research to support your claim.

To me, the effectiveness of the .38 SPL is on the shoulders of those who tout it. I don't know of any handgun hunters who have used it on animals much bigger than a jackrabbit.

 

[Piwo]

Whenever I hear about using target swaged lead wadcutters in a snubby 38 it is usually in the context of being a compromise. It is a load to be used when one can't handle the recoil of a full charge load. That is how I view it. You are getting 38 S&W(NOT 38 spl.) ballistics with an improved shaped bullet over the standard 146 gr. round nose. Perhaps good for very close range if you can place them and better than nothing. This is very different than a hard cast full wadcutter loaded to full charge. Those make more sense, but are not reduced in recoil.

Regarding compromise...If I was having an issue with recoil in a J frame I would look to other factors to mitigate recoil before I would power down my ammo. For example, I might go with better grips or a lighter bullet(full charge) first. Perhaps even a steel frame. I had a neighbor who bought a 642 as her first gun for ccw. She was very petite and couldn't really conceal or carry anything bigger or heavier. She couldn't tolerate all the plus p and heavy 38 spl, defense loads that the gun store sold her. I installed a set of Hogue grips and had her buy some 95 grain Hornady FTX ammo. It was night and day. She could actually practice enough with it and she could handle the recoil. A compromise to be sure but one she could live with. I'm not saying target level soft wadcutters are useless. But for me, I would explore other options first. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Doug M.]

One should generally not count on expansion with a .38, especially from a snobby. The WC/SWC shape is a good choice because there is no reliance on expansion. A snubby is generally a BUG and use at contact/near contact range, so the WC is decent for the purpose.
As for accuracy - it does matter for two reasons. The first is that a huge factor in effectiveness is placement, especially when one considers that a handgun generally is not a good defensive choice compared to a rifle. The other is that every round we send down range needs to hit the intended target and not someone/something else. I don't worry much about over penetration. I do worry about missing.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Whenever I hear about using target swaged lead wadcutters in a snubby 38 it is usually in the context of being a compromise. It is a load to be used when one can't handle the recoil of a full charge load. That is how I view it. You are getting 38 S&W(NOT 38 spl.) ballistics with an improved shaped bullet over the standard 146 gr. round nose. Perhaps good for very close range if you can place them and better than nothing. This is very different than a hard cast full wadcutter loaded to full charge. Those make more sense, but are not reduced in recoil.

Regarding compromise...If I was having an issue with recoil in a J frame I would look to other factors to mitigate recoil before I would power down my ammo. For example, I might go with better grips or a lighter bullet(full charge) first. Perhaps even a steel frame. I had a neighbor who bought a 642 as her first gun for ccw. She was very petite and couldn't really conceal or carry anything bigger or heavier. She couldn't tolerate all the plus p and heavy 38 spl, defense loads that the gun store sold her. I installed a set of Hogue grips and had her buy some 95 grain Hornady FTX ammo. It was night and day. She could actually practice enough with it and she could handle the recoil. A compromise to be sure but one she could live with. I'm not saying target level soft wadcutters are useless. But for me, I would explore other options first. Just my 2 cents.

It’s not about recoil. It’s about bullet performance.

By your logic we should carry 357 snubbies and shoot full power loads IF we can handle the recoil.

Shot placement and penetration has always been the most important. Expansion was never a thing until expanding bullets were designed and introduced.

 

[Norton 750]

I don't carry handloads for defense. Underwood makes a 1000 fps hard cast wadcutter that weighs 150 grains. It shoots point of aim in my fixed sight guns. Recoils less than the 158 gr LSWCHP +P I carried for years. I would ride the river with either load, but of late the lower recoil of the Underwood loads get the nod.

 

[petepeterson]

I don't carry handloads for defense. Underwood makes a 1000 fps hard cast wadcutter that weighs 150 grains. It shoots point of aim in my fixed sight guns. Recoils less than the 158 gr LSWCHP +P I carried for years. I would ride the river with either load, but of late the lower recoil of the Underwood loads get the nod.

That Colt is sharp!
Took me a sec to find the 6th hole.

 

[BE Mike]

I don't carry handloads for defense. Underwood makes a 1000 fps hard cast wadcutter that weighs 150 grains. It shoots point of aim in my fixed sight guns. Recoils less than the 158 gr LSWCHP +P I carried for years. I would ride the river with either load, but of late the lower recoil of the Underwood loads get the nod.

I don't know anyone who has actually, "rode the river" who carried wadcutters for personal defense. Some liked to give jackrabbits pierced ears with them.

 

[rockquarry]

I don't know anyone who has actually, "rode the river" who carried wadcutters for personal defense. Some liked to give jackrabbits pierced ears with them.

"Rode the river"?

 

[BE Mike]

"Rode the river"?

The Rio Grande. "He'll do to ride the river with."

 

[Warren Sear]

Accuracy is not really an issue for defensive use. We’re talking about only a few feet between shooter and target. You don’t even need rifling in the barrel.

That right there.

Remember that about 50% of shots fired in an average self-defense situation do not even hit the their intended target. Of course, that doesn't include YOU!!!

 

[Warren Sear]

"Rode the river"?

You know, "Seen the elephant!" LOL!

That's what the "operaters" say.

 

[Warren Sear]

How about, "Rode the elephant"???