It's not that easy. Change needs to happen on both sides. But not everyone agrees with that. They want things to be one sided.
The self perpetuated downward spiral has been happening for far too long. The change needs to start there.
Walking Away
- Thread starter Faulkner
- Start date
It's not that easy. Change needs to happen on both sides. But not everyone agrees with that. They want things to be one sided.
The self perpetuated downward spiral has been happening for far too long. The change needs to start there.
Triathloncoach
Member
I'd like to read the news coverage of this story.
Big Cholla
Member
Some areas that are identifiable today will have martial law imposed sometime in the future.
I am very disturbed by the happenings vis a vis the police in areas with the ultra liberal/socialistic leadership they have elected.
I am very disturbed by the happenings vis a vis the police in areas with the ultra liberal/socialistic leadership they have elected.
Yeah, I was laughing at them in the news this morning. They're mad because cops are wearing protective gear and carrying batons. But it's okay to throw IED's at the cops.
This looks like the incident: Shooting of Joseph Erin Hamley - Wikipedia
My niece is a newly minted state trooper. I am very proud of her, and of all the young people who sign up for this role. I hope the older, experienced, judicious lawmen, like those of you on this board, stick around long enough to help educate them.
Reading Faulkner's stories has made me realize there is so much more to being a good cop than simply enforcing the law.
Amen to that; I am surprised that more don't retire or find other employment. I see things like the restaurant employees that walked off the job rather than fill a carryout order for the Ohio State patrol and my first thought was that they better not need LE help soon.
By the way; in regard to the first post, We do not have a Democracy. We have a Republic; a Democratic Republic but it is a Republic.
A pure Democracy is Majority rules and they historically do not last long before falling into an Anarchy. fear we are heading there.
By the way; in regard to the first post, We do not have a Democracy. We have a Republic; a Democratic Republic but it is a Republic.
A pure Democracy is Majority rules and they historically do not last long before falling into an Anarchy. fear we are heading there.
hoppes-no9
Member
I do not accept this.
This country established its independence and secured our freedoms not by the police, but by the PEOPLE. We can do it again.
Always the right of center are the only ones who need to accept change and compromise. Meaning, move left. I refuse.
OP
Faulkner
Member
Fair enough regarding our representative republic, I made a slight edit.
You're right on how our country was founded, but at this point in our country's history we're not trying to establish independence, but push back against lawlessness and enforce the laws established by the representatives of the people.
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susieqz
Absent Comrade
i suspect the problems all come down to training.
as a lawyer, i;ve observered maybe a dozen departments.
the one that stands out iss the ontario provincial police,'
these are professional men.
like doctors, lawyers, engineers, they act in a way that commands respect.
in their field they are tops.
since we are the same people on both sides of the border,
i can't understand why other departments can't match them,
when police act like they do, civilians will trust them implicitely.
as a lawyer, i;ve observered maybe a dozen departments.
the one that stands out iss the ontario provincial police,'
these are professional men.
like doctors, lawyers, engineers, they act in a way that commands respect.
in their field they are tops.
since we are the same people on both sides of the border,
i can't understand why other departments can't match them,
when police act like they do, civilians will trust them implicitely.
Jon651
Member
I'm a little bit confused by the belief that "They want things to be one sided." That doesn't seem logical. The protestors want the police to accept a change in their behavior, and in return they are willing to accept less racial profiling and less brutalization by the police. Just because the change will be mostly positive for one side or more work for the other doesn't mean that there isn't change for both.
Triathloncoach
Member
And what happens when the masses riot? Give them someone to talk too? Gun battles? We need professional law enforcement and we can't blame all for the loathsome acts of a tiny minority of miscreants.
Triathloncoach
Member
The amount of violence on the streets is the overwhelming driving force, not painting all cops as racist. Let's say the cops never kill anyone else. What impact will this have on homicide numbers? Close to zero.
Puller
Member
Isn't it great living in America where we have the choice to disagree in a civilized manner.
Jon651
Member
How is it that in a national protest movement where less than a half-dozen have died there are folks who are willing to grant the police massive powers to respond, arrest and punish all in the name of safety, and yet there is a pandemic in our country where 110,000+ people have perished and these same folks go bananas over their civil liberties because they were asked to wear a face mask in Wal-Mart?
I say that the best way to deal with the rioting masses is to not give them a valid reason to riot to begin with, and if that takes some work on the part of the police to clean up their tiny minority of miscreants then so be it.
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Well, here's my two cents worth. When I was sworn in I was part of the change you talk about. Education was the future. I was recruited because I had a BA in Law Enforcement. We even got paid extra for our college degrees. There was going to be professionalism. Years later, they revoked to college pay because the state only required a High School degree therefore rewarding officers for education was considered a waste of money. Never-the-less, we fought for training, instituted community policing, tried to built an agency to be proud of.
I retired when our municipality threatened layoffs as a cost saving measure. Most of the young guys by then were veterans and had young families and mortgages. Several of us were qualified for full pension so a job saving deal was struck and we retired. Don't let the door hit you on the butt on your way out.
And the "change that's in the wind", looks to me like lawless mob rule, at least in many of our major cities.
Following the Viet Nam war, during the administration of Jimmy Carter, the morale of the military was at an all time low, through no fault of their own. Military members were spit on, called baby killers and disrespected by the public, media and politicians. The quality of available recruits suffered. My father, Marine veteran and Police Officer talked me out of joining the military at the time. I fear the same conditions exist today for Law Enforcement. Politicians use us a pawns.
I'm proud of the job I did, but it was a truly thankless job. I'm glad I'm retired and pray for those still on duty.
.
Well said!
A valid reason to riot. Apparently not so novel an idea anymore.
Jon651
Member
Man I feel for you. I personally despised it when politicians called themselves public servants - I thought that was always so disingenuous. When it comes to change, however, just because the idea is being put forth by a nationwide protest doesn't mean it lacks validity, not in the least for those demanding it.
We as a nation have survived some pretty drastic social changes over the years - women got the vote; the military was integrated (as were the schools), Disney bought the rights to Star Wars, and many other things that weren't popular at first but in the end made this a better place overall. I'm confident that we will survive the crisis du jour in the same way we always have.
Exactly as I see it also. What is perhaps the most common chant at these protests(?)?
No justice, no peace. To me that is a threat of violence unless demands are met, an attempt to blackmail and hold society hostage, OR ELSE, and it has gone on for decades. The LA riots in 1992, there were arrests, there was a trial and a verdict, but because it didn't suit some you ended up with violence. Reminds me of Veruca Salt in Willy Wonka, screeching, whining I want it, I want it now like petulant little children throwing a tantrum.
Jon651
Member
Not all protestors are rioters and looters; not all rioters and looters are protestors. Don't conflate the two. And "No justice, no peace" is just another political catch-phrase and means just as much.
I follow a social comedian on YouTube who said something like this (I'm paraphrasing here) - Why don't people ever get any credit when something like the George Floyd killing occurs and there's NOT a riot? It's not like they didn't have a reason.
I'll give you credit for the Willy Wonka reference, but you lose a half-point for not recognizing that there are two distinct groups out there. We're not going to bow down to the violent ones; but we sure should be talking to the rest. If you ever feel the need to protest about a change to your 2nd Amendment rights (or something else important to you) then you just might find the shoe on the other foot.
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"We the PEOPLE" are in the streets rioting and looting and taunting Police Officers, yeah, and killing and injuring them too!
I am not optimistic about our future!!!
The difference is I would not be protesting and find a tough choice of which store I am going to loot, should I torch my neighbor's car, perhaps set my house ablaze to show how passionate I am about the Second Amendment. True, not all protestors are committing crimes, most are not but it is rare to see those in support of protests pushing to eliminate the bad ones from the action. They want numbers showing up. Even the media is rare to have headlines showing "Rioters/Looters/Arsonists destroyed or looted...". It is almost always "Protestors were at hand, and some rioting happened.". And most every protests of large size and in a large community ended up violent at some point.
Jon651
Member
True that you may not be the one to torch your neighbor's car or loot the nearest pharmacy, but there will certainly be some maroon who will make a scene all decked out in his Wal-Mart tactical gear sporting an AR and a Glock while trying to enter the state house to yell at the legislators to their faces. Actually, you don't need to imagine that - it already happened during the "last" crisis...
You and I both knew they didn't represent the majority of gun owners, but the sensationalism was the same if not for the slightly different wording of the headlines.
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We must all agree that there is a HUGE difference between protest and riot, which includes but is not limited to arson, assault, rape, murder and theft. I can't see how riot can be justified.
Yes, there will be change. Right now there are District Attorneys that are refusing to charge RIOTERS for offenses committed while Police Officers, following the laws written by politicians and the orders given by politicians, are vilified by those same politicians and prosecutors. This is a political power struggle where Police Officers are being used as pawns by all sides.
P.S. No need to feel for me. It's todays Officers that are getting shafted.
venomballistics
Member
This might take a while, but stay with me.
LAPD aquires its evidence bags through a company called Milivan. They are a medical packaging supplier. Milivan sub contracts the actual production work to third party companies.
The evidence bags themselves span a wide array of sizes, obviously to accommodate the wide range of sizes any given piece of evidence.
These are made of a particularly heavy polyethylene film called Barrier C Its kinda hard on some machinery, particularly cutters. 8 mil doubled in some stages can take the edge off of a blade in a hurry compared to other things that might typically be produced.
A production run of a single given size of bag might tie up two or three shifts and number between10K and 50K pieces.
These contract orders span several sizes at once with 6 figure runs typical. I should know. I used to produce them.
These orders would come up four times a year with total unit production numbering around the 2 million mark.
If one thinks long and hard about that, and considers the nature of a crime where evidence would be collected, a rather alarming picture begins to form of LA's volume of serious criminal activity.
Lets say, for the sake of argument that the LAPD was a heinously corrupt force that was better off being wholly replaced.
If you pull the plug on the force, this tidal wave of crime still remains to burn the city to the ground unchecked. But, if you opt for a gradual rotation in an attempt to maintain a firewall against it while its reforming, there's a good chance the culture will poison any and all new officers recruited to it.
Those forces behind that ridiculously high demand for evidence bags must be dealt with before you can do anything of substance with the police force. Then and only then can an effective reform take place.
To do that, reform must start elsewhere within the system. The revolving door courts, and early release policies need to be addressed first.
LAPD aquires its evidence bags through a company called Milivan. They are a medical packaging supplier. Milivan sub contracts the actual production work to third party companies.
The evidence bags themselves span a wide array of sizes, obviously to accommodate the wide range of sizes any given piece of evidence.
These are made of a particularly heavy polyethylene film called Barrier C Its kinda hard on some machinery, particularly cutters. 8 mil doubled in some stages can take the edge off of a blade in a hurry compared to other things that might typically be produced.
A production run of a single given size of bag might tie up two or three shifts and number between10K and 50K pieces.
These contract orders span several sizes at once with 6 figure runs typical. I should know. I used to produce them.
These orders would come up four times a year with total unit production numbering around the 2 million mark.
If one thinks long and hard about that, and considers the nature of a crime where evidence would be collected, a rather alarming picture begins to form of LA's volume of serious criminal activity.
Lets say, for the sake of argument that the LAPD was a heinously corrupt force that was better off being wholly replaced.
If you pull the plug on the force, this tidal wave of crime still remains to burn the city to the ground unchecked. But, if you opt for a gradual rotation in an attempt to maintain a firewall against it while its reforming, there's a good chance the culture will poison any and all new officers recruited to it.
Those forces behind that ridiculously high demand for evidence bags must be dealt with before you can do anything of substance with the police force. Then and only then can an effective reform take place.
To do that, reform must start elsewhere within the system. The revolving door courts, and early release policies need to be addressed first.
I can't say what I truly want to here.
But, what about the mother who's son was arrested and she said on national TV "all my boy did was shoot at the cops!".
This isn't just about recent events. It's about the culture and beliefs of a few generations of people who have taught their children to fear, distrust, and defy cops. All cops. This is wrong. This is the FIRST change that needs to take place. Morals and ethics need to be taught in the home.
They need to step back and look at themselves and make the necessary changes and stop expecting everyone else to change to suit them.
Yes police brutality is wrong. But if you live a thugs life, chances are you might just meet a bad cop. Maybe not. But maybe we should just stay out of trouble?
Jon651
Member
Hey Kanewpadle, I don't disagree with you as much as it may seem at times. A lot of what you said here is entirely true. As for trying to stay out of trouble, we couldn't even get folks to wear a mask to the grocery store in the middle of a pandemic that has killed over 110,000+ people without public protests. As a species, I wish we were smarter...
