Water heater expansion tanks. Why are they an extra?

[LVSteve]

So I had my water heater go bad at New Year and had it replaced by a nice new one. Not once did anyone say to me, "Ya know, this is an older home and probably has pipes in the slab, you might need an expansion tank."

I now have a slab leak. First thing my slab leak guy says on viewing the new heater is, "They didn't fit an expansion tank?" Nope. House is 30 years old and built during the big construction boom of the 90s. I guess it is a measure of the standard of work back then when the slab leak guy goes on to say, "Yeah, I see nearly 200 of these a year."

The "proper" way to fix a slab leak is to dig up all the pipes and replace them. Oh, and then try and get the same tile that was laid down 30 years ago to match. Not. A. Chance.

Is the insurance going to pay for new floors over 75% of the ground floor? I doubt it, especially as I have caught the issue early and there is no damage above ground that we can see. I'm also hearing they are unlikely to help pay for fixes that prevent damage. I'll call them anyway, the worst they can do is say no.

My slab leak guy has given me estimates for fixing the one run, and fixing them all, using an "up and over" technique. It does involve cutting drywall and ceilings, but that is easy to fix compared to having your house jackhammered.

Ain't home ownership wonderful?

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I've replaced hundreds of gas and electric hot water tanks over the last 50 years. I have never installed or replaced an expansion tank. I think it has to do with line pressure changes in your service. I saw a notice when the county wide water company took over a small village water department and would be raising the line pressure when they tied the village into the county wide mains, and recommended people adding an expansion tant to their system. I didn't get one call, and talking to you local plumbers, they didn't install any either!

When a tank dies, there is always aa major expense off tank and installation and often the expense of cleaning up water from a burst tank! People don't want to pay for extras! We would not replace a tank without a new Pressure relief valve (about a $10 part), sometimes that's included with the tank and sometimes an extra part. I had a owner of 8 rental units throw a fit every time we did one, because of the part cost. My brother got tired of hearing him complain. We had a newspaper article from the 80's about a School in Oklahoma having a new 80-gallon tank installed without a new pressure relief valve, and it exploded the next day! Killing 4 or 5 kitchen staff and 4 or 5 students! all over $10!

I believe many building codes are including expansion tanks as code now, but I'm not convinced a new build needs one. But I'll do what they pay me too!

Ivan

 

[glenwolde]

I'm getting a new water heater in the morning. We just bought this place a few months ago and I just discovered the water heater is 23 years old. It's like having a bomb in the attic. Thanks Mr. Home Inspector. My fault, I should have caught it. I checked everything else but missed that. Everything else is old as hell too but in good shape at least. Our offer reflected that.

 

[Rustyt1953]

Our 81 gallon water heater is less than 5 years old.

We're good.

 

[pharmer]

.........My slab leak guy has given me estimates for fixing the one run, and fixing them all, using an "up and over" technique. It does involve cutting drywall and ceilings, but that is easy to fix compared to having your house jackhammered. Ain't home ownership wonderful?

I had a "whole house re-pipe" done on a 1989 vintage 3/2 in Kissimmee a dozen years ago. In Florida old codes allowed copper pipe under concrete slab.
1st bad sign: rolled garage door up, water rushed out.
2nd bad sign: plumber jackhammered out maybe 15 feet of concrete trying to find a "solid end." The copper kept crumbling, on and on.
3rd bad sign: ov****ad re-pipe with pex, guaranteed for 10 years. $3500 at the time.
4th bad sign drywall repair extra, double the initial price. Plumbers ain't painters dontchaKnow.
Glad I sold that house although after the remodel (another $18K) it was quite nice.

Home ownership is tough, especially with spiralling costs but the alternative is renting and that leaves you with nothing, eventually. Best of luck. Joe

PS: the missing letters replaced by asterisks above are e,r,h,e. I didn't know they spell a forbidden word.

 

[Yaworski]

I used to sell water heaters. Some areas require expansion tanks as code, others don't.

When you heat water, it expands. That expanded water needs to go somewhere. In olden days, it would push back into the water main. Now most houses have pressure regulators to reduce line pressure (mine is about 180 psi) to around 50 psi for the home so the expanded water can't go back into the main.

An expansion tank has a rubber bladder and the volume outside the bladder is pressurized to the line pressure.

Expansion tanks have a short life compared to a water heater so a good salesman will offer a new expansion tank. A smart plumber will offer up an expansion tank too because installation is easy and there is a healthy markup on them.

 

[BC38]

We had ours replaced a couple of years ago. They added the expansion tank. It was an up-charge, but one I was willing to pay - considering the potential alternative consequences.

The old rule of thumb I've always read, is to expect to invest 1%-2% of your home's value into repairs and maintenance per year - on average.

So if your house is worth $250k, plan on putting an average of $2,500-$5,000 per year into maintaining it and repairing things that break.

You may spend nothing some years and in other years you may pay a sizeable amount, but it usually averages out to be somewhere in that 1%-2% range.

It's just the price of maintaining an asset. On the bright side, the appreciation and growth in equity will pretty much always exceed the maintenance costs. So you still come out ahead.

Of course if you rent instead of buy, then your landlord is the one who pays - but he's also the one who gets the increase in equity and appreciating value when the time comes to sell the property.

I prefer the ownership option myself.

We have our "primary residence" (in IRS speak) AND a little lake place (a "secondary residence" per IRS definitions). Both of them were purchased in the last 10-11 years, both are paid off, and both are worth about double what we paid for them.

So, even though ownership means making an ongoing investment in maintenance and repairs, I have still come out WAY ahead in the long run. That is how it has worked out for me.

The alternative is to "OWN nothing - and be happy" - as those behind THE GREAT RESET have said.

Personally, I prefer the more traditional idea of BUILDING wealth and an inheritance for my children - and their children.

But that's JMO, and as always, YMMV....

 

[Bald1]

That 1-2% number is way high in a lot of areas. As to the expansion tank they are required for code in my town. I built in 03-04 and just replaced my expansion tank last year. Easy check, if water comes out of air valve then the bladder is torn……… When I put well in at my cabin and plumbed it I learned that the well tank acts as an expansion tank. Makes sense.

 

[bamabiker]

For those that have them, when was the last time you checked the pressure in the expansion tank?

 

[Yaworski]

For those that have them, when was the last time you checked the pressure in the expansion tank?

I check mine once a year. A good sign of failure is when water comes out of the Schrader valve.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

In a previous house, had a leak under the slab.
Turned out that we had really high water pressure.
When I asked the water co manager, he says, Yeah! We got high pressure.
Everyone knows that! Except me.
The cure was to install a pressure regulator.

 

[LVSteve]

In a previous house, had a leak under the slab.
Turned out that we had really high water pressure.
When I asked the water co manager, he says, Yeah! We got high pressure.
Everyone knows that! Except me.
The cure was to install a pressure regulator.

How did they fix your leak?

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Narrowed down to one loop by isolation at the distribution manifold.
It was the line to the kitchen.
They Jack hammered a trench in the kitchen floor but never actually got down to the line.
So they just replaced that line.

 

[BC38]

That 1-2% number is way high in a lot of areas...

OK, fair enough.

Like I said, it is a general "rule of thumb" - NOT an absolutely accurate prediction (which isn't even realistically possible - unless you own a perfectly accurate crystal ball).

In reality, in some markets/circumstances it will be less, but in other circumstances/markets it will actually be more.

So, if you go into home ownership PLANNING to have to invest 1%-2% per year, if it actually costs less, then you are AHEAD of the game. If it actually turns out to cost more than that, at least you have planned to cover MOST of the actual costs.

Expect the best, but plan for the worst.

 

[Chuck24]

At least nobody called it a hot water heater

 

[LVSteve]

Narrowed down to one loop by isolation at the distribution manifold.
It was the line to the kitchen.
They Jack hammered a trench in the kitchen floor but never actually got down to the line.
So they just replaced that line.

This house doesn't have a dedicated distribution manifold with all the isolating valves. I strongly suspect the nearest thing to that is buried in the wall of the laundry room.

What really concerns me is that the builders here may well have built their own manifold and BURIED the damned thing in the slab. There might be a manifold above the slab in the void under the stairs that extends between the kitchen and hallway, but to find out I would have to remove the back of one of the hall closets. There is no access hatch. The builders back then had no interest in how the property was to be maintained or repaired when they threw them up. It is a complete mystery where most of the pipes go in this home, especially up to the master bathroom. I have a suspicion, but again it will take opening a wall to find out unless it can be found with a thermal camera.

As for jack hammering the floor, that would mean either having a chunk of tile in the middle of the home totally different from the rest, or re-tiling 75% of the downstairs with new tile as I doubt matching tile is available after 30 years. To have that amount of work done on the floors, we would basically have to move out.

 

[Old 44 Guy]

I have 2 rental homes in another state. Both on city water. Both water heaters have gone bad, about 7 years life expectancy. So when I built my new home I had a on demand gas fired one installed. So far so good. Been 8 years & all is well and I am on a well as well.

 

[30-30remchester]

BC38's comments are spot on and should be taught in school and adhered to like glue. I preach the same philosophy about our transportation. It always baffles me when someone bemoans the fact that their car needs some "unexpected" repair. When asked, I advise new automobile owners to set aside $50 per month for "unexpecteds"

 

[Liftrat]

When my town had back-flow preventers installed, they said an expansion tank was required, since the BFPs essentially make the house plumbing a closed system. I check mine every year, too - good cheap insurance.

 

[chief38]

I am not a professional plumber however I have done all my own plumbing for 48 years and I am pretty good at it. While I do not necessarily replace an expansion tank when the water heater or storage tank gets replaced, I do always check it at that time (and from time to time after that) for a failed bladder and the pressure holding integrity. If there is any question (tapping for sound) that the bladder as failed or the tank does not hold the pressure I originally set it to, it gets replaced. I write the pressure it was filled to with a sharpie so I have that info. They are inexpensive enough to replace.