wats the .444 marlin

[Skeet 028]

From someone who is a 44 fan. While I have both the 444 and 45-70...The older round is a better thumper when loaded to it's potential. Can't improve the 444 too much more and I think it may be a bit more accurate. It is a good shooter and with 265 gr ammo is adequate for even elk and bears up close and personal. And the 444 can be loaded down for fun shooting. But the 45-70 is a better round for the bigger critters esp when handloaded to it's potential. Not knocking the 444. It is a good round but the older larger round is what I carry in the black timber...or my old Win 71 348. Shots there are almost always 100 yds or under..and we do have grizz up there. The 444 is at most of it's potential in factory form. Luckily I do reload. My 444 is probably going to be sold. The Marlin CB 45-70 is a good shooter.

 

[rwsmith]

I think the .444.....

I think the .444 is a good moose, elk type gun.

I gather that the 45-70 was considered obsolete in the mid 1960s and the .444 was suppose to replace it. Then the public realized that the 45-70 WAS a good cartridge, became more popular and now over shadows the .444 Marlin.

 

[venomballistics]

444 and 45-70 ...
somewhat similar. however the 444 favors lighter bullets at higher velocities. 45-70 favors great whacking baseball sized chunks of lead.

me ... I'd opt for the all American baseball game

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

Sorry about your 94 BigBores.
I have never owned one and now may never!
I was repeating what I have read about the designed allowable chamber pressure: ~50 kpsi as opposed to ~45 kpsi.
That does not seem like a lot but I have in the 444 binder I have assembled over the years some loads specifically for the 94BB.

My 444s was made in 1981, has no safety, and shoots very well as you can see from the target I posted.
The Marlins also come apart and go back together way easier than the Winchesters.
The screw sets are still available and I suggest anyone wanting to work on their Marlins get one or 2 while they can.
I have also put the Happy Trigger in it and am well.... happy with it.
trigger-happy-kit/
They are expensive but well engineered, and easy to install if you are comfortable taking down and rebuilding lever guns.
The trigger pull was reduced and more importantly the creep was all but eliminated.
This without replacing or lightening any springs which I am leery of.
I also think nickel plate (could be chrome) looks better than the cheesy gold wash on the stock trigger.
Also available in blue.

I agree Mike.
The 444 Marlin is (pun intended) bulletproof.
I do clean it from the rear.
Simply take out the lever screw and then the lever.
The bolt comes right out and you can then insert the cleaning rod from the breech.

There are custom jacketed bullets like the Hawk which are less expensive than the $1 apiece (or more) Swift and Woodleigh.
Hawk Bullets master list but these are swaged cup and core and may not be bonded as well as factory bullets.
The Hornady 265 JFN (not the FTX) was the first and remains the most used jacketed bullet designed for the 444.
It works.
But as I have said, the WFNGC is much more versatile and much less expensive.
And don't believe the oft repeated "wisdom" from gun writers who have obviously never owned or shot the 444
that the 1/38 twist will not stabilize 300 grain or heavier bullets.
Read those articles by Marshall Stanton I posted and join the Marlinowners forum.
Real people have shot real bullets with accuracy up to 355 grains.
It's the length that determines stability not the weight.
In fact heaviness adds to stability.
The WFN is about as short as you can get for a given weight.
I see no need for anything heavier unless pursuing large dangerous game like brown bears..
John Taylor thought 400 grain 41 caliber bullets were ideal for elephants (450/400 NE).

Those of you lucky enough to own the later 1/20 twist Marlins or single shots don't have to worry about any of this.
If Marlin had simply chosen to rifle the 444 with as little as a 1/30" twist in the beginning, this decades long debate would never have started.

You are correct sir......My 2 ea. "P's" have 1 in 20 Ballard rifling. And will accurately shoot most any bullet......Those with the 1 in 38 microgroove rifling.....If bullet is sized .001 to .002 over bore dia. will shoot big cast bullets good too.

 

[zeke]

The 444 guide gun (outfitter?) owned is extremely accurate. While the 45-70 has better availability of heavier jacketed bullets, you can shoot very light 44 caliper jhp's at high velocity out of a 444 for pumpkin demolition.

 

[38SPL HV]

444 Marlin is a 44 Magnum on steriods. Original load used same 240 gr JSP. Good cartridge, but I would prefer a 45-70 imho.

 

[Nemo288]

That's a common misconception.
The 445SM is the 44 Magnum on growth hormones.
The 444 is actually the 30-06 case blown completely out with a small rim added.
I can see why they did not call it the 44-06.
This makes the base a little larger than the 44 revolver rounds.
The 240 JSP Remington used was strengthened with an additional cannelure.
This bullet, as far as I know, was never available for reloading.

But philosophically you are right.

 

[Skeet 028]

Actually Remington did sell some of those bullets. I still have at least one box . And you are right. The bullet was not a real good 44 mag number. It wouldn't really expand so well in the 44 mag. I also remember the 265s had a double cannelure for a while. I may have some of them too. Red boxes.

 

[venomballistics]

That's a common misconception.
The 445SM is the 44 Magnum on growth hormones.
The 444 is actually the 30-06 case blown completely out with a small rim added.
I can see why they did not call it the 44-06.
This makes the base a little larger than the 44 revolver rounds.
The 240 JSP Remington used was strengthened with an additional cannelure.
This bullet, as far as I know, was never available for reloading.

But philosophically you are right.

Mmmkay .... so if the 445 Super Mag is the 44 on steroids ... then I suppose we should call the 444 Marlin the 44 magnum of steroids and meth after two pots of coffee.

 

[Nemo288]

Mmmkay .... so if the 445 Super Mag is the 44 on steroids ... then I suppose we should call the 444 Marlin the 44 magnum on steroids and meth after two pots of coffee.

(and 8 hours a day in the gym for a few years)
LOL! I like it.

Actually Remington did sell some of those bullets. I still have at least one box . And you are right. The bullet was not a real good 44 mag number. It wouldn't really expand so well in the 44 mag. I also remember the 265s had a double cannelure for a while. I may have some of them too. Red boxes.

Cool.
I obviously did not know about those 240 super JSP's.
The 265's have always been the Hornady.
I have been loading them since I got my 1981 444s at a gun show sometime in the mid 80's.
I suspect they are like the 44 magnum of rifles (see above).
Guys buy them and then don't like the recoil and then sell them right away.
Anyway, the early 265's had only one cannelure but they added another somewhere along the line.
I have boxes of both.

 

[cochise]

Back in the '70s there weren't many good .44 mag bullets like there are now. Too many sp and hp would blow up on deer at close range and fail to penetrate hogs and bears like they were advertised. My solution was to buy the Rem 265 grn and load them up in my .44 mag S&W. They killed plenty of pigs/hogs/deer, but I never found one to expand.

 

[Skeet 028]

They sure didn't expand. But they would usually go through. I had a gas check Keith mold that was a great shooter and worked in both the 44 mag and the 444. I think it weighed about 260 gr out of my handgun alloy. It would lead the bore slightly in the 444. Don't remember why but it shot pretty well. Took a good sized white tail at about 50 yds with that bullet from the 444...clean through front to back. Probably the quickest kill I ever saw. Just crumpled. As far as the 265 gr bullet I thought it was a romper stomper in the 444. But no worse than 350 gr bullets pushed in my 45-70.

On the 445. I never shot one and always wondered how they were. For some odd reason I have about 50-60 new 445 cases.

 

[Nemo288]

445 Info

On the 445. I never shot one and always wondered how they were. For some odd reason I have about 50-60 new 445 cases.

According to JD Jones when I was communicating with him, the original idea for the 445 was to gain as little as 100 fps over the magnum.
Most of the loads I developed for the Dan Wesson ran around 150 fps hotter than my Redhawk: roughly 1600 fps for a 240 JHC.
A LOT more horsepower can be had by shooting these in an Contender or Encore (now S&W products).
Out of a 12" barrel I get more than 1800 fps using both 240 JHC and the 265 FTX.
The 265 I can load way forward because of the shape and my chamber has a generous throat.
The 17" barrel does not add as much as I thought it would.
The 4227 powder I use is evidently pretty much spent in the 12".
I get about another 100 fps using a 260 WFNGC (1913 fps) and less using copper bullets.
The 17" is however legal to mount a rifle stock on and allows me to shoot way more accurately using peep sights.
Hornady says the 265 FTX is designed for muzzle velocity of 1300-2300 fps and the 265 FP for 1500-2200 fps.
Since I can get almost 1900 fps out of the 265 FTX in the 17" barrel, this would be my best bet ballistically.
I am still unsure of the terminal performance though as the 444 adds another 3-400 fps to this and is the real designed speed.

Because the 445 is in effect a wildcat these days, there is not a lot of loading information out there.
If you decide to get a custom gun made for your brass let me know and I can share some of info I have collected over the years.
I was an early adopter and still use the cut off rifle brass we had to make before Starline saved the day.
I retired the big Dan Wesson and just shoot the Encore barrels now.
Makes a nice, very compact, fairly powerful short range weapon.
Much nicer to shoot than the 444 which is right about at my personal limit for recoil.

If you decide not to play with the 445, I would be willing to make a nice home for that brass.
It would get shot, I assure you.
Let me know what you want for it if you decide to sell it.

I recommend playing with it.
It's a fun cartridge and folks at the range will be asking you about it as most have never heard of it let alone seen one.
I had my barrels made by Bullberry but Bellm, MGM, JDJ's outfit SSK, EABCO and I am sure several others can all make you a nice 445 barrel.

This single page is about the only official loading info for the 445 in a Contender I know of:
Hornady does have some good info for the Dan Wesson as do a few other manuals.

 

[Skeet 028]

Thanks for the info. I recently bought some custom shop bbls at an auction all unfired. One of them is a 21 inch 44 mag carbine bbl. Bet I could re-chamber it fairly easily. Think I may just sell it and stay with a Marlin 1894 44 mag. Now a Dan Wesson in 445...hmmm

 

[Frank46]

I believe that the rifling twist on my 444S is 1x38 and supposedly the only heavy bullet that can be accurately fired from is aside from the 240 grain bullets is the 265 Hornady bullet. I did hear thet at one time they had changed the twixt to 1x20 but never saw one. And marlin barrels ain't exactly cheap to have one installed. Still the one I have gives pretty good accuracy for what it is. Frank

 

[Nemo288]

That is misinformation promoted by gun writers who obviously have never shot heavy bullets in the 444.
Or even shot a 444 at all.
See my post #20 above.
I shoot 300 WFNGC's all the time in my 1/38" barrels.
The Hornady 300 XTP is also shot quite a bit by 444 fanatics.
The trick is to get them going as fast as possible.
Marshall Stanton has shot groups under an inch with 355 grain bullets.
He is also famous for his ability to work a powder measure.
When he tried his big 400 grainer, that's when stability totally went away.