Weight of SW 1911DK for IDPA, Legal or Not ?

[ctkenc]

The S&W Web site says this gun is 41 ozs, and therefore IDPA Legal as long as that weight INCLUDES the empty Magazine, which, unfortunately, is not specified.

However, the paper catalog says it is 41.7 oz's (and elsewhere in the same catalog, 41.3 oz's) which makes it DQ for IDPA Shooting ... whether or not that 41.3 or 41.7 includes the empty magazine, would not matter, it is compeletly illegal for IDPA matches.

I cannot find anyone at Smith &Wesson who has any clue as to the correct weight, INCLUDING the empty magazine. the store offered to weigh one but they don't have any to weigh.

I'll include the info in the paper catalog below ,,, it is on page 38 listed as 41.7 oz's .... BUT, on page 18 it is also listed, but at 41.3 oz's ... great, eh?

I'm hoping one of you has one and has an accurate weight, both without, and, with, the empty magazine.
thanks
Ken

SKU: 108287 Model SW1911DK

* Oversized Magazine Well
* Ambidextrous Safety
* "Designed in Collaboration with Doug Koenig"
* 5" 1911 Configuration
* Doug Koenig Hammer
* Flat Competition Speed Trigger
* Rosewood Grips with Smith & Wesson Silver Medallions
* External Extractor for Extremely High Reliability
* Adjustable Target Sights
* "Doug Koenig" Professional (DKP) Serial Number Run

 

[OKFC05]

Can't offer anything but sympathy at your plight.

All guns that are right at division weight limits are a problem. I've seen different guns of the same model weighed, and one would pass while the other was ruled over. Does the match director stay right at 41.0 or round down for 41.4 and less (the regs don't specify, and just say 41). Students of measuring recognize the ambiguity in the regs.

Square butt 686s are an example where the gun is often deemed legal at one match and overweight at another, based on scales that have not been calibrated for over a year and can easily be nearly an ounce off. What are you going to do except go get the backup gun which you are sure is more than an ounce under?

 

[ctkenc]

Originally posted by OKFC05:
Can't offer anything but sympathy at your plight.

All guns that are right at division weight limits are a problem. I've seen different guns of the same model weighed, and one would pass while the other was ruled over. Does the match director stay right at 41.0 or round down for 41.4 and less (the regs don't specify, and just say 41). Students of measuring recognize the ambiguity in the regs.

Square butt 686s are an example where the gun is often deemed legal at one match and overweight at another, based on scales that have not been calibrated for over a year and can easily be nearly an ounce off. What are you going to do except go get the backup gun which you are sure is more than an ounce under?

Thanks for the sympathy and input. I just got off the phone with the Store at SW .. they guys were nice but not entirely informed, nor informative. For instance, the gun in reference is in their catalog at 41.3 oz's, and a few pages later at 41.7 oz's but the web site says 41 oz's and NONE of them say if it is with, or without, empty magazine and IDPA weight limits include empty magazine.
We found one that the paper catalog calls 41. ozs but when they weighed it on the scale in their store just now, it was 38.75 oz's.
that was the model on page 39 of the catalog and has the Novak FO sights. Product Code 178011 ... I've actually seen this one and like it a lot ... have asked my Dealer to weigh one for me on his store scales to see what he comes up with.
I'm really surprised that Smith & Wesson does not have better product information for their staff and Clients.
Ken

 

[rbert0005]

There is only one way to be sure what yours weighs, weigh it yourself.

The magwell may be an issue as well.

The catalogue weights are only approximate.

It doesn't matter what the book says or what CS says. The gun weighs what it weighs. I am sure they vary. The staff at S&W doesn't need to know what that number is, you do.

Bob

 

[ctkenc]

Originally posted by rbert0005:
There is only one way to be sure what yours weighs, weigh it yourself.

The magwell may be an issue as well.

The catalogue weights are only approximate.

It doesn't matter what the book says or what CS says. The gun weighs what it weighs. I am sure they vary. The staff at S&W doesn't need to know what that number is The staff at S&W doesn't need to know what that number is, you do.

Bob

Bob,
The catalogue weights are only approximate ...
I respectfully, and wholeheartedly, disagree ... there is no reason they cannot or should not be, accurate.

The staff at S&W doesn't need to know what that number is .... then how are we supposed to gain that information; when the web site says one thing and the catalog says two other things, and when you call the Staff does not know. Unless the dealer you have access to has the Gun(s) and an accurate scale, how are we to know? Obviously, in the current operating model we cannot entirely trust or rely on the Company of Staff.
And if you were to travel to a match and upon arrival find you were DQ'ed because you Gun was Illegal Weight, not what it was represented to be by the Mfgr. .... I think you'd be fairly perturbed.

 

[rbert0005]

I am new to IDPA, so I don't have many answers. One of the regulars at my first match said something to me that made all the sense in the world.

The guys were talking about someone that was DQ'd at the big regional at S&W ths year because of his ammo. Factory, to boot. It just didn't make power factor.

He said Do NOT assume anything. Chrono your ammo, weigh your gun, etc,etc. The point was to be responsible for your own equipment. Then you will know for sure. No speculation at all.

Bob

 

[ctkenc]

Originally posted by rbert0005:
I am new to IDPA, so I don't have many answers. One of the regulars at my first match said something to me that made all the sense in the world.

The guys were talking about someone that was DQ'd at the big regional at S&W ths year because of his ammo. Factory, to boot. It just didn't make power factor.

He said Do NOT assume anything. Chrono your ammo, weigh your gun, etc,etc. The point was to be responsible for your own equipment. Then you will know for sure. No speculation at all.

Bob

Bob,
hat makes two of us as "Newbies" to IDPA Shooting .... and I'm trying to learn as much as I can as fast as I can.
I agree that in the end, it is best to weigh it yourself, and to be sure it is an accurate scale.
I guess it just annoys me that the Mfgr. does not provide EXACT weights and operate within strict quality control standards adhereing to that published weight.
Ken

 

[growr]

It matters not what the catalog says, you need to know YOURS. Same with power factors on ammo...know yours as well so it is not an I think but rather I know....
Randy

 

[ctkenc]

Originally posted by growr:
It matters not what the catalog says, you need to know YOURS. Same with power factors on ammo...know yours as well so it is not an I think but rather I know....
Randy

Well that's all fine, "If" you already own the Gun but if you are trying to decide whether or not to Buy it, and do not have a reliable weight you are kind of scrod.
Unless I can get it on a reliable scale at the Dealers, so I can know what it really weighs, I cannot proceed with purchase as I would not be able to use it in IDPA shoots.

Was really hoping there would be an Owner here on the Forum that could weigh theirs for me so I'd have some idea as to whether or not this has potential.

 

[growr]

Did not realize that you had not purchased it yet...Most dealers have a scale for thier outgoing UPS/Fedex shipments that should be VERY accurate and most likely frequently calibrated. Hopefully they will be willing to help you in determining the actual weight.
Hope that helps you out...
Randy

 

[Dan Cash]

Originally posted by OKFC05:
\
.....What are you going to do except go get the backup gun which you are sure is more than an ounce under?

Find a game that is realistic about hardware. Defesive Pistol, fooey

 

[OKFC05]

Find a game that is realistic about hardware

If you ever do find a game that is realistic about hardware, post it here so we can all try it. I've been looking for one for decades.

I have two Paraord LDAs that differ slightly. One has been ruled illegal in USPSA (IPSC) Production for a minor factory cosmetic feature and the other is an ounce over the IDPA/SSP weight limit.

 

[ctkenc]

I must be too demanding and unrealistic about performance expectations and business practices today .... because, it is just incredible to me that a Company like Smith & Wesson, who has been making Guns for a very long time, cannot define the EXACT weight or one of their Products.
And to make matters worse yet, they call it 3 different weights;
41 ozs' on-line (no mention of with/without Mag)
41.3 oz's on pg 18 of their catalog (Magazine?)
41.7 oz's on pg 38 where it is featured (Mag?)

 

[ctkenc]

Tried sending a nice, brief e-mail to the CEO, Head of Operations, and Head of Marketing but cannot seem to get them to go through as their e-mail address (s) do not appear to be what it looks like they would be from the Executives List on their web Site

 

[sasu]

I bought an STI Ranger II (1911 Commander size) pistol for IDPA, because the factory specs say the barrel is 4.15", thus legal as a bull barrel (under 4.20"). Turned out the barrel length is a standard 4.25", so no IDPA with this gun.

The Recoil Master I could have replaced with a standard spring, but there is nothing I can do about the barrel length.

 

[ctkenc]

Just got off the phone with a very nice CSR in the S&W Customer Service center ... she went into repair and got one, with a Magazine, weighed it, and called me with the Bad News ..... 41.9Oz's so No IDPA for the Doug Koenig Model.

Looking now at the Pro Series 178011 which is listed everywhere I look as 41 oz's but have no confirmation from a scale yet. the people I've talked with at SW say "this is their IDPA 1911".

 

[sar4937]

I think you could use it in ESP at 43oz.

 

[ctkenc]

Originally posted by sar4937:
I think you could use it in ESP at 43oz.

DUH, why didn't I think of that?
I just re-read the IDPA section. Thanks for pointing that out to me.
More I think about it, wouldn't it be a competitive disadvantage though as they be using 11 rounds and the Max I could attain, without modifications, would be 9 rounds initially, on the first string, and then during the COF 8 rounds ... don't see putting one loose one in the pipe while loading fresh magazine during the COF . ?

 

[OKFC05]

More I think about it, wouldn't it be a competitive disadvantage though

Trust me, you don't even consider shooting a single-stack .45 in ESP against the STI 9mms. You are screwed before you start.
CDP is home for the .45 single-stacks.

 

[ctkenc]

Originally posted by OKFC05:

More I think about it, wouldn't it be a competitive disadvantage though

Trust me, you don't even consider shooting a single-stack .45 in ESP against the STI 9mms. You are screwed before you start.
CDP is home for the .45 single-stacks.

Agreeeeed !
thanks