What .32 ammo for S&W 1.5 top break

[cbw100]

Hello, I inherited a s&w .32 model 1.5 top break from my grandpa. serial number is 34007. It seems in pretty good shape and i'd like to shoot it but have no ammo.

Q1: Is shooting an old revolver like the 1.5 advisable with modern ammo?

Q2: Exactly what ammo would be ok to shoot?


Thanks

 

[mnrivrat]

The gun is chambered for .32S&W . This is the short cartridge, not the long.
If the gun is in good condition the modern ammo is loaded down well enough that many shoot it in their 1&1/2's . I am just finishing up repairs on mine and plan on shooting factory loaded smokeless powder loads in it.
Never hurts to have a qualified gunsmith check it over first.

 

[glowe]

Welcome to the Forum. The revolver you have is simply called a 32 Single Action. 32 S&W ammunition is available from most major manufacturers, but with many other calibers, it can be difficult to find. Your best bet is to find ammo online in stock and order it that way. A revolver in good condition will handle current manufacture ammunition, but you also have to remember the gun was made in 1880 can break for any reason. Parts are difficult if not impossible to find, so don't make it your daily shooter.

 

[Jim Watson]

.32 S&W ONLY.
Do not let somebody tell you it is OK to shoot .32 ACP in a .32 revolver, especially a top break.

 

[glowe]

.32 S&W ONLY.
Do not let somebody tell you it is OK to shoot .32 ACP in a .32 revolver, especially a top break.

I can not find a direct comparison of pressures for the 32 ACP & 32 S&W, but SAAMI publishes pressures for 32 ACP @ 20,500 psi. Lee reloading manual shows 32 S&W pressures @ 9500 cup.

At low pressures, both psi and cup measurements are similar. A study titled "Correlating PSI and CUP" by Denton Bramwell provides some interesting correlations between the two types of pressure measurements. Hope this provides some food for thought for 32 S&W top-break shooters to reconsider shooting 32 ACP.

 

[Plain Old Dave]

Even outside that, almost all .32ACP ammo has jacketed bullets. Higher pressure from that alone, and the greater wear on older steel are plenty of reason to hold on for .32 Short or Long.

 

[Jim Watson]

Note that the cartridge is ".32 S&W" there is no "short" in the official brand name, although a lot of people say it. Ask for .32 Short in a well stocked store and you might come out with .32 Short Colt, which is not correct.

 

[cbw100]

Thanks for all the replies and good advise.. haven't had very good luck at finding the .32 s&w short non acp, yet. I'll keep looking and eventually post back how she shoots.

 

[tlmetesh]

I had one and shot it ... once ... just to say that I had done it. Great little gun.

 

[McShooty]

All of the Model 1.5 SA 32s I have seen have cylinders that are actually machined for 32 S&W. The longer .32 ACP case generally will not chamber. All misguided .32 ACP firing is accomplished in guns chambered for the .32 S&W Long. Results are mediocre. I would not endanger grandpa's gun, made in the 1880's by firing any factory ammo in it, I do not care how much everyone insists on its low pressure. If you must fire grandpa's gun, find someone to load 1.5 grains of Trail Boss behind a 76-grain cast bullet (Made by Hunter's Supply and others).

 

[glowe]

. . . I would not endanger grandpa's gun, made in the 1880's by firing any factory ammo in it, I do not care how much everyone insists on its low pressure . . .

I think we need to see your data supporting the dangers of shooting current factory loaded 32 S&W ammunition. A person cannot just make a statement like this without data to support their position. If you do not have any data, you can’t make blanket comments on unfounded perceived dangers here.

The 32 S&W was originally loaded with black powder, pretty much like 4F powder of today, but actually finer. The Peters case was loaded with 10 grains, under an 88 grain bullet, while the US Cartridge Co. cartridge was loaded with 8 grains under a 85 grain bullet. I have shot these loads in the past and chronographed both and the averages were: US Cartridge - 800fps and the Peters averaged 740fps.

I have also chrongraphed both recently manufactured Remington and Winchester 32 S&W factory loads and the results were as follows:

Remington 88 grain RN 580fps
Winchester 85 grain RN 540fps

Can I tell you the pressures of these 4 cartridges? I cannot, but with factory velocities being almost 30% less, I can all but guarantee that the pressures are lower than original. Actually, I have done these same experiments with everything from 22 to 45 Schofield and found that all "standard" current factory loads yield lower velocities than original BP or smokeless loads.

Lastly, I have inquired with Remington in the past and I must tell you that they do not want to be quoted on anything that has to do with current factory ammunition being shot in antique firearms, BUT when I shared my velocity data with them, they agreed that lowering original loadings for older calibers was an important design feature in their manufacture and that was good enough for me.

There are studies out there comparing the pressure curves of Black Powder to standard fast burning shotgun powders, and they find that the pressure cures down the length of a gun barrel are almost identical. There is no difference in where the pressure spikes and no difference in pressure readings for the same MV loadings.

Now let us see your data and we can have a discussion. Can you break a 150 year old gun shooting it today? Absolutely, but it is not because of what you shoot in it, since it might break dry firing with nothing in the chambers in about the same amount of time due to years of repetition and metal fatigue.

 

[tjpopkin]

I assume all of you were referring to the SA centerfire .32…..

The Model 1 1/2 could be a rimfire as well!!!

 

[McShooty]

You want to blow me away by asking for data, huh? Like I have figures on the percentage of old Smith's that are blown up by firing new ammo? Of course not.

Read the quote you included in your last post. I expressed a conviction about what I would do with a Grandpa gun. Don't think I need any data to back up a conviction like that. I am just telling you something I would not do. My code says not to fire new ammo in a family heirloom. It might tell you something that Remington did not want to be quoted on the subject of firing new ammo in antique guns.

I think it possible that there might be a hidden weakness in an old gun that might reveal itself upon firing. It might or might not be there, and it might or might not be dangerous, but there is no law that says I must fire grandpa's old gun, so I will keep it safe and use other 32's for shooting.

I own four revolvers chambered for 32 S&W, two Smiths, and two H&R's. I have fired factory in only one of the H&R's, a Premier model made after 1910, and in new condition. Remington 88 gr loads averaged 679 fps from its 3-inch barrel. MagTech 88 gr averaged 660 fps. The Remington 88 grainers gave 640 fps from my 4" S&W Mod 30-1. I have fired no factory ammo in the S&Ws. A handload of 1.5 gr Trail Boss with a Hunter's Supply 76 gr Flat nose Averaged 660 fps from a Model 1.5 SA, and 630 fps from a DA, 4th Model, both with 3.5" barrels. The lighter bullet, sized to 0.311" helps keep pressure down. This firing was without incident, and fired cases fell out of the chambers. I have tried the MagTech 88 gr RN bullet and Berry's plated 83 gr WC with 1.3 gr of Trail Boss. Results were pretty good with velocities in the mid 500s.

Now, regarding data, I would like to see yours. How many old 32 SA topbreaks have you tested? I think maybe 15 revolvers, each fired with ten rounds of each of three brands of factory 32 S&W ammo, with no mishaps, might convince me.

 

[raljr1]

I don't have any data, but I think it's safe to assume that modern ammo manufacturers know that some of their ammo is very likely to find its way into an older, antique revolver, and so they are loaded to cautiously enough to avoid legal liability should a purchaser choose to do so.

 

[Askeladden]

I think the myth of 32 s&W being underpowered comes from smokeless factory ammo that is loaded down to ridiculously low levels because of all the crappy revolvers chambered for it. I've even read stories about it not being sufficient to kill a pig at point blank range to the head.

In my opinion people treat these top breaks as if they are pieces of ****.. which some of them undoubtedly are, but not the smith and wessons, they can withstand higher pressures than most of the factory smokeless ammunition, i wouldn't shoot .32 acp in them though.

 

[TIMETRIPPER]

I've used black powder loads in my 32 S&W top breaks. I've also used factory loads and reloads using various smokeless powders. The black powder loads were quite stout for the little 32. Felt recoil was more than factory Remington and this was with 9 gr BP pushing 85 gr RN lead home cast bullets. One gr of Trail Boss with the same bullet was the mildest. I'd have to check my records but I'm not so sure if 1.5 gr of TB will fit in a 32 S&W case without compression, a big no no with TB.
But I think both Glowe and Mcshooty have valid points. Keep your loads as mild as possible with these old black powder top breaks revolvers, and Trail Boss is the best way to do it. Anymore, when I find a box of new 32 S&W factory ammo I'll shoot 'em up in one of my 32 hand ejectors and then reload them with a scoop of Trail Boss. Just don't compress the load. I have a set of Lee's powder scoops and found that the .7cc measure works well with the bullets I'm casting out of an old Ideal bullet mold/reloading tool. Someday I'll get a chrony and play around with it but for now I'll just rely on the likes of Glowe and Mcshooty to provide the data.

John

 

[Qball]

I assume all of you were referring to the SA centerfire .32…..

The Model 1 1/2 could be a rimfire as well!!!

Then this is what you need

H&C .32 RF

and i think that "Dixie Gun Works" once had these kit's.

 

[glowe]

. . . Now, regarding data, I would like to see yours. How many old 32 SA topbreaks have you tested? I think maybe 15 revolvers, each fired with ten rounds of each of three brands of factory 32 S&W ammo, with no mishaps, might convince me.

First of all, let me be clear that gun owners can shoot whatever ammo they want in their revolvers, but that was not the original question. The OP asked if he could shoot modern ammo in their revolver. They can is the simple answer. He did not ask if he should shoot his grandpa's gun or not. I have to state that it is a pet peeve of mine when people make recommendations and set rules for others without any supporting information. I have my great grandfather's 32 DA, which was handed down to my grandfather, then to me. My gandfather used the little 32 DA that to shoot raccoons and opossums in the chicken coop and it is the most enjoyable gun I can shoot, remembering his stories about how you would have to put at least 3 slugs into the vermin to dispatch it. Guess what – he shot only smokeless powder. He also relied on it the shoot pigeons in the barn. He could do this because the bullet was too weak to go through the roof decking.

If you want proof of the safety of modern standard ammunition in antique firearms, just look around. I can almost guarantee that every antique cartridge gun out there has shot smokeless ammunition after 1900 and they are still working today. Most of the top-break guns out there remained the same as they entered into the twentieth century and the companies eventually made statements that smokeless factory ammunition is perfectly safe and actually preferred to reloaded ammo at that time. Unfortunately, many reloaders of old treated smokeless powder as a bulk powder like BP and loaded the same way, which I am sure ended up in some very unpleasant results.

As for me, I just am guessing here, but over the last 30 years, I have probably shot a couple dozen 32 S&Ws, 20 38 S&Ws, 10 Model 3s in 44 American and 44 Russian, 44 DAs and 44 Frontiers, 2 dozen Model 1 1/2s and Model 2 32 rimfires. I have shot many BP rifles with modern ammunition including 45-70s, 44-40s, 45 Colts, 577 Snider Enfields, etc. I have shot all my Model 1 22 tip-ups as well with CCI CB Shorts and have never had a mishap. I have even shot at least a couple dozen of my dreaded Damascus barreled shotguns with smokeless powders. When I start out with a new caliber, I buy lots of factory ammunition to get ballastics and empty brass for reloading. I then duplicate the factory load with appropriate reloading recipes. I even bought a thousand rounds of Navy Arms 32 Long & Short rimfire back in the early 1990s and have shot over 600 rounds of it with no incidents and with great enjoyment.

The results were . . . drum roll . . . nothing blew up, nothing broke, no wood cracked, no frames were stretched, and nothing that anyone else has every stated would happen happened. Is that enough information? Somehow, I doubt it.

. . . oh yah - here is my grandfather's little 32 DA.

 

[McShooty]

Here is my great grandmother’s Harrington and Richardson Automatic Ejecting third Model, Fourth Variation, 32 S&W Long made in the 1916-1924 frame. It was made for smokeless powder and I have no doubt it would safely fire factory 32 Long ammo. Do I use it? No. It is more fun to make up loads even lighter (and cheaper) than factory, if you can believe there is such a thing. Overly cautious? Maybe, but one thing I am sure of. When this gun goes to my granddaughter, she will have her great-great-great grandma’s revolver in the same excellent condition in which it passed to me.

Here is my S&W Double Action 32 (short) top-break, 4th variation, with a target fired with a 76-gr cast bullet and a light load of Trail Boss powder. Not a bad group for 25 feet, especially if you ignore the two I jerked. Too bad it does not shoot to point of aim, but that is common.

Here is my S&W Single Action Model 1-1/2 32 (short) top break with a few cartridges loaded with Hornady 0.310 round balls pushed by a light load of Trail Boss. The balls are nearly as accurate at short range as conical bullets, and they easily penetrate a panel of 3/8” plywood. Too bad, neither of these S&Ws belonged to an ancestor.

Here is a pic of four bullets that might be used in light handloads for the 32 S&W. They are (L to R): A round ball, a 76-gr cast flat nose, Berry’s 83-gr plated wadcutter, and MagTech’s 88-gr lead round nose, which I think is swaged. Loads for these bullets in 32 S&W were discussed in a post I made a couple years ago, but of course, no one would remember. Does it matter that these handloads cost a lot less than the 70-80 cents each you will have to pay for Remington or Winchester 32 S&Ws.

Here is the gun I use for firing factory 32 ammo and heavier handloads, an S&W Model 30-1 Hand Ejector. Strong solid frame from the 1960s, great trigger, and a super shooter.


By the way, if you want to shoot 32 ACP, the Colt 1903 is a good way to go. This one was made in the 1920s. You know, Colt says they are going to make some new ones. Soon?

 

[Askeladden]

Here is what the .32 S&W was capable of originally.