What can we do to end this madness?

I read an article today about a fleeing suspect in NYC who mowed down 10 pedestrians trying to get away from the police in a stolen SUV. Fortunately when he crashed the SUV and tried to flee on foot bystanders tackled him and held him down until police arrived to take him into custody.
The thing that REALLY ticked me off about the article was the last line.

So what the HELL was this guy doing on the street hurting innocent people?
With multiple arrests for two gun charges and others for drug crimes why wasn't he behind bars?
We have got to start handing out real sentences to this kind of scum for breaking the laws that are already on the books instead of just letting them go and passing more laws that aren't going to be enforced anyway. :mad:

Being a life time New Yorker (state not the city) I have some real serious answers to this question. Being a sort of long time user of this forum and know first hand the zeal of our many moderators I will keep them to myself.-:cool:
 
They (Demo) say crime is down in NYC... Its because everyone who hasen't been mugged in the last 6months is still in the hospital or moved out.

Rob
 
This typically happens only in crime infested areas. They don't have the resources (funding, jail space) to lock up everyone who deserves it. The courts are also booked, so plea deals are the rule.

Detroit (Wayne County) is a good example. Offenders who would receive jail/prison time in nearby Oakland County for the same crime are often put on probation and released.

The mass shooter at Michigan State University had been previously arrested for carrying a concealed weapon without a license, but it was pled down to a misdemeanor. That allowed him to buy another gun from an FFL. They could have tacked on Felony Firearm charges (mandatory 2 years), but that's seldom done.

I firmly believe that if weapons charges weren't negotiable/avail for plea bargains, and mandatory charging for them every time, it would make a significant difference.

The three strikes laws looked great on paper, but ultimately, it comes up against the laws of physics. mainly, the one where two bodies of matter cannot occupy the same space at the same time.
As a result, three strikes laws became political toilet paper.
There just isn't any good solution left that won't bolster wood chipper sales and service. Some of us might not mind, but something with the appearance of genocide would not bode well come time for reelection.

I understand the issues with the courts being overbooked and the prisons overcrowded. I also understand that nobody wants to pay higher taxes to increase the budget for more police, courts, judges, and prison space. These things cost money - a LOT of money. But what is the cost to our society - in terms of both financial and physical/emotional damage? I believe these costs are much higher, just not as easily measured or visible to the average taxpayer. Especially when you include all the costs for the police and courts to keep investigating, tracking down, arresting and prosecuting the same bad actors over and over and over again.

We need to convince people to change the whole paradigm.
1) Beef up the criminal justice system. More police, judges, courts, and prosecutors - but they won't have to be permanent - more about that later.
2) Increase the number of prison beds. This can be done for a LOT lower cost than the way we are doing it now. Incarcerate lesser offenders in tent cities - WAY out in the middle of nowhere. Like Arpaio did in Arizona. Save the space in the permanent higher security facilities for those who commit violent crimes.
3) Make inmates WORK to earn their keep. No work, no privileges, just the bare necessities. Prison should not be a mobility-restricted country club. It should be unpleasant.
4) Make them serve their time - or at least a certain minimum percentage of it - say 80% - 90%, and they have to earn any time off by restitution.
5) Make minimum sentences for violent offenses non-negotiable. Including all crimes committed with a gun.
6) Pass a 3-strikes law at the Federal level
7) Reinstate capital punishment for a specific set of the worst crimes, and limit the number and the grounds for appeals to new, material evidence, not minor technicalities. Yeah, I know "what about people who are wrongly convicted?" In the case of capitol crimes, with modern forensics, the instance of wrongful convictions are infinitesimally small.

If we could push through those kinds of reforms, the direct cost to taxpayers for judges, courts, and prosecutors would go up - temporarily.

But if going to jail is a really unpleasant experience, and they have to serve significantly more time, petty criminals will have an incentive to NOT become repeat offenders. Over time the number of petty criminals incarcerated will decrease - and that will decrease the associated costs.

As the number of of hard-core criminal types kept behind bars increases, the recidivism rates will also decrease. If they face lifetime incarceration for 3 strikes and the death penalty for crimes like murder, rape, etc. even the hardcore types are likely to change their ways. And if the worst of the worst are actually executed for their crimes, instead of living a long life on death row, the cost for incarcerating them years on end will also be eliminated.

All of that will in turn decrease the costs to investigate crimes and to catch and prosecute the recidivists through the system. Over time that will eliminate the need for some of the previously beefed up numbers of police, judges, courts, and prosecutors - further reducing costs. And these personnel reductions can be accomplished through attrition. As the crime rates and caseloads go down, we just don't replace retiring police, judges, and prosecutors, The decision whether to replace personnel or increase or reduce their numbers (through attrition) could be based on crime statistics.

The other costs to our citizens - both in terms of money and in terms of the physical and emotional damage - would also be reduced.

What we are doing is NOT working. With no fear of serious punishment, and better accommodations IN prison than many of them would have on the outside, crime continues to increase. It's WAY past time to try something different. Like maybe some of the things that worked to keep crime rates down in the past. Like the list above...
 
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Sadly, the results are always perfect for the choices made. Prosecutors make the choices based on their judgment. Without being able to look in their heads, it's a jump ball.
 
The take away from this will be to stop chasing suspects when they run . Watch and see ..
 
I read an article today about a fleeing suspect in NYC who mowed down 10 pedestrians trying to get away from the police in a stolen SUV. Fortunately when he crashed the SUV and tried to flee on foot bystanders tackled him and held him down until police arrived to take him into custody.
The thing that REALLY ticked me off about the article was the last line.

So what the HELL was this guy doing on the street hurting innocent people? With multiple arrests for two gun charges and others for drug crimes why wasn't he behind bars?
We have got to start handing out real sentences to this kind of scum for breaking the laws that are already on the books instead of just letting them go and passing more laws that aren't going to be enforced anyway. :mad:

Sounds appealing, but is locking up more of these clowns the answer? We already have more people in prison and a higher rate of incarceration than any place in the free/civilized/industrialized world, or so I keep hearing.
 
Sounds appealing, but is locking up more of these clowns the answer? We already have more people in prison and a higher rate of incarceration than any place in the free/civilized/industrialized world, or so I keep hearing.
Did you read post # 26?

We have some of the highest incarceration rates because we have some of the highest crime, and recidivism rates. Mainly because the consequences for criminal behavior aren't substantial enough. There isn't enough of a dis-incentive to deter crime. JMO.
 
You really want to end this madness? How about immediate execution of the perps right at the scene of the crimes for the victims to watch.
With no due process? Un-Constitutional.
For which crimes would you advocate such a drastic solution - where do you set that threshold?

Hopefully you're just being facetious...
 
I understand the issues with the courts being overbooked and the prisons overcrowded. I also understand that nobody wants to pay higher taxes to increase the budget for more police, courts, judges, and prison space. These things cost money - a LOT of money. But what is the cost to our society - in terms of both financial and physical/emotional damage? I believe these costs are much higher, just not as easily measured or visible to the average taxpayer. Especially when you include all the costs for the police and courts to keep investigating, tracking down, arresting and prosecuting the same bad actors over and over and over again.

We need to convince people to change the whole paradigm.
1) Beef up the criminal justice system. More police, judges, courts, and prosecutors - but they won't have to be permanent - more about that later.
2) Increase the number of prison beds. This can be done for a LOT lower cost than the way we are doing it now. Incarcerate lesser offenders in tent cities - WAY out in the middle of nowhere. Like Arpaio did in Arizona. Save the space in the permanent higher security facilities for those who commit violent crimes.
3) Make inmates WORK to earn their keep. No work, no privileges, just the bare necessities. Prison should not be a mobility-restricted country club. It should be unpleasant.
4) Make them serve their time - or at least a certain minimum percentage of it - say 80% - 90%, and they have to earn any time off by restitution.
5) Make minimum sentences for violent offenses non-negotiable. Including all crimes committed with a gun.
6) Pass a 3-strikes law at the Federal level
7) Reinstate capital punishment for a specific set of the worst crimes, and limit the number and the grounds for appeals to new, material evidence, not minor technicalities. Yeah, I know "what about people who are wrongly convicted?" In the case of capitol crimes, with modern forensics, the instance of wrongful convictions are infinitesimally small.

If we could push through those kinds of reforms, the direct cost to taxpayers for judges, courts, and prosecutors would go up - temporarily.

But if going to jail is a really unpleasant experience, and they have to serve significantly more time, petty criminals will have an incentive to NOT become repeat offenders. Over time the number of petty criminals incarcerated will decrease - and that will decrease the associated costs.

As the number of of hard-core criminal types kept behind bars increases, the recidivism rates will also decrease. If they face lifetime incarceration for 3 strikes and the death penalty for crimes like murder, rape, etc. even the hardcore types are likely to change their ways. And if the worst of the worst are actually executed for their crimes, instead of living a long life on death row, the cost for incarcerating them years on end will also be eliminated.

All of that will in turn decrease the costs to investigate crimes and to catch and prosecute the recidivists through the system. Over time that will eliminate the need for some of the previously beefed up numbers of police, judges, courts, and prosecutors - further reducing costs. And these personnel reductions can be accomplished through attrition. As the crime rates and caseloads go down, we just don't replace retiring police, judges, and prosecutors, The decision whether to replace personnel or increase or reduce their numbers (through attrition) could be based on crime statistics.

The other costs to our citizens - both in terms of money and in terms of the physical and emotional damage - would also be reduced.

What we are doing is NOT working. With no fear of serious punishment, and better accommodations IN prison than many of them would have on the outside, crime continues to increase. It's WAY past time to try something different. Like maybe some of the things that worked to keep crime rates down in the past. Like the list above...

Some of this I agree with.
However, one of the issues at play is the law itself.
Most laws do little more than shift advantage to those who will not follow it. As such, we would do well to strip many from the code. Any law that keeps us from being as nasty as we NEED to be in the face of those who are as nasty as they WANT to be, simply needs to go.
If we start here, there's less to enforce, less to process through the courts, and less incarcerated for such vile deeds as possession of an unregistered NFA weapon.
With the advantage of the unlawful stripped, thug culture no longer holds the appeal it currently has
 
Did you read post # 26?

We have some of the highest incarceration rates because we have some of the highest crime, and recidivism rates. Mainly because the consequences for criminal behavior aren't substantial enough. There isn't enough of a dis-incentive to deter crime. JMO.

I get your frustrations, as we just went through all the political wrangling over our hometown "homeless society encampment". Recidivism is a major problem, as is apparent lack of penalties for crimes committed. The judicial/penal system is in need of serious reform. The major disadvantage this country has over smaller democracies is that we have such a large population to deal with. It is easier for smaller European countries to establish education of inmates and gradual reintroduction to society. The other issue to deal with is the lack of care this country gives to those in need of true medical evaluation for serious mental problems. These are not easy issues to deal with and as with anything cost a tremendous amount of money to solve. I am not a big fan of defunding the police any more than I am a fan of "militarizing" them with used military equipment, there must be a better way and I am pleased to see an effort made locally with addition of trained medical evaluation alongside police presence.
I've always said that I don't mind paying taxes if it means that by doing so my wife is relatively safe shopping for grocieries instead of needing an armed escort to get her grocieries to the car because someone with the need to feed their children is willing to take from those that have. We have not quite reached that tipping point yet, we are seeing a bit of fraying around the edges...like an old battle flag. I get accused of being too optimistic but I can only hope that we are seeing the bottom with a positive upswing in our future. At my age all I can do is hope and vote.
I had a long talk with my sixteen year old granddaughter last night. She is an intelligent girl and voiced her opinion about being tired of all of the ancient people making decisions that will effect her future. She mentioned the racial bias she witnesses with multi racial friendships and sees the hypocrisy at a relative early age. She would like to seek an education in the medical field and sees the need for improvements in the way this system works as regards health care and in particular mental health needs with her mother and others in the family involved with the medical system.
 
I think if non violent offenders got work release, we'd have plenty of room to keep violent offenders off the streets.

20 years for copyright infringement? Really? :rolleyes:

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I think if non violent offenders got work release, we'd have plenty of room to keep violent offenders off the streets.

20 years for copyright infringement? Really? :rolleyes:

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My immigration attorney loved to poke fun at some of puritanical hangovers floating about in US law. For example, she told me that I could be denied my Green Card for committing a crime of "Moral Turpitude". She explained it thus: if your crime shocks the neighbors and frightens the horses, you're out, but if you just gave a loud pushy drunk a good hiding in a bar for groping your girl, that's OK. Alrighty then!
 
Answer is at this point, we can't. The line of departure to be able to fix the system was crossed long ago.

I wrote an unpublished essay on what could be done to fix the system about ten years or so back. It has gotten worse since that time but the ideas I put forward in it would work, but would be considered draconian. It also involved starting in the home and school. I don't think my "ideas" would work in today's highly sensitive/easily offended society. You can wish someone a "good afternoon" in passing in this time then have a complaint filed on you for doing so. It's happened to me.

I will share one idea I remember off the top of my head: first, felony crimes would be strictly no bail. Period. If I wrote anymore the moderators would drop a 16 ton anvil on me!

But let's get to the REAL cause here: the people themselves. I see people pay a lot of lip service to the problems in the system, but really have a more "meh" attitude about it. Look at some of our cities now. San Francisco, Portland, so on. The oifficials egging on the problems could be recalled or impeached or removed from office at the ballot box. How much of that do you see going on?

Fact is the majority of Americans in this time are to be polite "indifferent" and really don't care.

We aren't the only nation going through this right now. Europe is as well.

It isn't going to get better until the people themselves step up and make it better. I don't see that happening in my lifetime.
 
Answer is at this point, we can't. The line of departure to be able to fix the system was crossed long ago.

I wrote an unpublished essay on what could be done to fix the system about ten years or so back. It has gotten worse since that time but the ideas I put forward in it would work, but would be considered draconian. It also involved starting in the home and school. I don't think my "ideas" would work in today's highly sensitive/easily offended society. You can wish someone a "good afternoon" in passing in this time then have a complaint filed on you for doing so. It's happened to me.

I will share one idea I remember off the top of my head: first, felony crimes would be strictly no bail. Period. If I wrote anymore the moderators would drop a 16 ton anvil on me!

But let's get to the REAL cause here: the people themselves. I see people pay a lot of lip service to the problems in the system, but really have a more "meh" attitude about it. Look at some of our cities now. San Francisco, Portland, so on. The oifficials egging on the problems could be recalled or impeached or removed from office at the ballot box. How much of that do you see going on?

Fact is the majority of Americans in this time are to be polite "indifferent" and really don't care.

We aren't the only nation going through this right now. Europe is as well.

It isn't going to get better until the people themselves step up and make it better. I don't see that happening in my lifetime.

Unrestricted immigration is a large part of the problem.

Interesting that no one has never done an environmental impact study on the negative effects of hundreds of thousands of third world people pouring across civilized nation's borders every month or so and using up food and water resources; and increasing demand on sewage systems.
 
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