Jack Flash
Member
Yes, and they would stamp the heck out of them coming and going.The Brits sure do love to stamp up a nice gun though.
What Do I have? S&W 1917 455
- Thread starter Mikebiker
- Start date
Texas Star
US Veteran
Colt didn't load ammo. But Winchester and Dominion/CIL in Canada did load .455 Colt.
This used the longer MK I length .455 case and used a 265 grain lead bullet at a nominal 750 FPS. Service MK II loads only made about 600-625 FPS.
What .455 ammo was available here was prob. commercial .455 Colt.
This used the longer MK I length .455 case and used a 265 grain lead bullet at a nominal 750 FPS. Service MK II loads only made about 600-625 FPS.
What .455 ammo was available here was prob. commercial .455 Colt.
Texas Star
US Veteran
I had a very nice second model .455, but never found .455 ammo when I could afford any as a poor college student. What there was was MK VI FMJ sold as surplus after WW II.
I sold that gun to eat when a GI Education Bill check was late.
Many here really need to study .455 Webley ammo in all six Marks. All work fine in .455 revolvers and some also use the prior .476 cartridge.
The UK declared .455 revolvers and .455 autos obsolete in 1947 and many were sold here in the 1950's and '60's. My first handgun was a Webley MK VI converted to .45 ACP. I was 13; my mother bought it. By 16, I had a Colt M-1917 .45.
I liked movies and books about British forces in colonial India and Africa and was very keen to get that Webley. Montgomery Ward's, remember them?
I sold that gun to eat when a GI Education Bill check was late.
Many here really need to study .455 Webley ammo in all six Marks. All work fine in .455 revolvers and some also use the prior .476 cartridge.
The UK declared .455 revolvers and .455 autos obsolete in 1947 and many were sold here in the 1950's and '60's. My first handgun was a Webley MK VI converted to .45 ACP. I was 13; my mother bought it. By 16, I had a Colt M-1917 .45.
I liked movies and books about British forces in colonial India and Africa and was very keen to get that Webley. Montgomery Ward's, remember them?
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Jack Flash
Member
Just from memory, I think the 1940 Shooter's Bible (I have a reprint) showed that Colt continued to chamber their New Service in .455 at least until 1940 and ammunition was still manufactured by the major companies. I believe S&W did the same.
I assume this was mainly for export to Canada and perhaps South Africa, Australia, NZ, etc., but I don't know. Maybe there was a niche market in the US.
The only "niche" market for .455s that existed in the US at the time was as alternatives, because of the British purchasing commission literally buying up all suitable caliber guns in the US for it's civilian wartime defense of England, including commercially sold overrun .455s. Some of which, based on their markings, actually saw service in the trenches.
Many 'overrun' guns, .44 HE TL 1st Models in .455, .455 HE TL 1st Models, and .455 HE 2nd models, were sold into the commercial market both here and abroad thru the end of the war.
To my knowledge and based on some research, I can't find any record of S&W .455s being produced by S&W after completing the contract guns in 1916. This includes .455s shipped to the Canadian government. Before the Brit contract for service revolvers we do know that a very few .455s built on the .44 HE TL 1st models were ordered and shipped out of the country.
Any .455s produced after the war would have been special order built on the 1917 or .44 2nd model frames (virtually the same frames) but no indication of that is available.
Is there any differentiation made (and by "differentiation" I mean $$$) between a 455 that stayed stateside rather than being sledgehammered up by our Britics friends?
The value differentiation can go both ways for premium condition guns: military collectors want the stamped up guns, and general collectors prefer un-stamped guns.
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I vaguely recall a forum conversation about .455 revolvers being somewhat common in the Northeast states near the Canadian border.
Jack Flash
Member
In case someone is still interested ...
I finally just opened the 1940 SB and confirmed Colt and S&W did indeed offer revolvers chambered in .455. Colt called it ".455 Eley" while S&W referenced it as both ".455 Colt and .455 Eley."
For Colt, it was the New Service, for S&W it was the 1926 Model .44 Target. In its blurb about the NS, Colt proudly proclaims "This is the standard arm of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police." Although they didn't say it, I think Colt provided this revolver to the RCMP chambered for both the .45 Colt and the .455 Eley.
Later on in the book, under the heading "Average Ballistics of Remington Oil Proof Pistol and Revolver Cartridges" is listed ".455 Webley Mark II" with a 265 lead bullet, muzzle velocity 600 (fps) from a 6" barrel. From this I infer that Remington at least was still producing .455 ammunition as late as 1940.
Whew! I hope someone wanted to read this!
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
The RCMP emerged in 1919/20 when the North West Mounted Police was merged with the Dominion Police. From 1904 to 1919 the NWMP had issued the New Service in .455, but switched to .45 Colt in 1919 just prior to the merger. The Dominion Police (the Canadian federal police since 1868) was already using the NS in .45, so that became the standard RCMP issue caliber.
The Canadian military used the New Service from 1900 to 1928, but also in .45 Colt.
They did adopt the S&W 2nd Model and Webley Mk VI in .455 during WW I. The S&W’s reportedly remained in active inventory until after WW II, surviving past the adoption of the .38 M&P in 1939 and then the Inglis Hi-Power as standard sidearm in 1944.
I don‘t know to whom Colt were selling .455 revolvers post-WW I, especially as late as 1940, but it wasn‘t the Canadian government
"I finally just opened the 1940 SB and confirmed Colt and S&W did indeed offer revolvers chambered in .455. Colt called it ".455 Eley" while S&W referenced it as both '.455 Colt and .455 Eley.'"
Now the question is, has a 2nd Model .455 been lettered to the late '30s-1940? S&W listed the 2nd Model .44 Hand Ejector as being available in 4", yet no 2nd Models have lettered as shipping with a 4" barrel
Now the question is, has a 2nd Model .455 been lettered to the late '30s-1940? S&W listed the 2nd Model .44 Hand Ejector as being available in 4", yet no 2nd Models have lettered as shipping with a 4" barrel
1920 thru 1942 45 Colt NS revolvers were re-ordered by RCMP exclusively except for 1932 when the last batch of 455 Eleys (MK II) was ordered. To solve the issue of two different cartridges, all 45 Colt chambered guns were moved to eastern Canada and all 455 Eleys to west of Thunder Bay in Northwest Ontario.
1954 all .45 caliber revolvers were retired since the S&W .38 Spl Military and Police had been adopted in 1939 (thought to be 5 ½” barrels).
1964 retired .45 caliber revolvers were first offered to Force members for $12 ea. Then the remainder were sold to the general public.
1954 all .45 caliber revolvers were retired since the S&W .38 Spl Military and Police had been adopted in 1939 (thought to be 5 ½” barrels).
1964 retired .45 caliber revolvers were first offered to Force members for $12 ea. Then the remainder were sold to the general public.
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Jack Flash
Member
I thought it would be odd for Colt to proudly mention arming the RCMP if those sales were in the distant past. Thanks for providing that information.
Just out of curiosity, would it be a huge undertaking to go back to the pre-1940s records and see how many (if any) "1926 Model .44 Target" revolvers chambered for .455 Eley / Colt were manufactured and shipped by S&W? I assume it would be a daunting task, perhaps for more or less nothing, so there may be very little interest amongst those with the ability to do the research.
I also have a revolver like that, but it has English civilian fire. Ser. No. is 2193X
And smaller stamps than the one shown.
He has hit numbers on the back of the handle, does anyone know what they could mean?
Best Regards
Christian
And smaller stamps than the one shown.
He has hit numbers on the back of the handle, does anyone know what they could mean?
Best Regards
Christian
Attachments
Christian,
I believe the numbers stamped on the backstrap are British regiment markings. Someone more knowledgeable may confirm or correct my opinion. Also, they may be able to tell you what regiment.
I believe the numbers stamped on the backstrap are British regiment markings. Someone more knowledgeable may confirm or correct my opinion. Also, they may be able to tell you what regiment.
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I think Guy is right, although I can’t interpret the exact meaning either.
These markings appear somewhat haphazardly applied. But from observing others, usually the issue month/year was at the top, and that’s likely what the 1/15 or 1/16 (I can’t make sense of the last digit) is. January of 1915/16. 3 would be the gun number and 13 YK the unit (something with Yeoman?). Just my flight of fancy
So that’s all completely speculative. Peter or Alan could likely shed more light.
These markings appear somewhat haphazardly applied. But from observing others, usually the issue month/year was at the top, and that’s likely what the 1/15 or 1/16 (I can’t make sense of the last digit) is. January of 1915/16. 3 would be the gun number and 13 YK the unit (something with Yeoman?). Just my flight of fancy
So that’s all completely speculative. Peter or Alan could likely shed more light.
This forum can help with the stampings:
British Militaria Forums - Victorian-era British arms, accoutrements, and military history.
Appears to be the 13th Green Howards, a New Army btn which was originally a bantam btn.
Alexandra, Princess of Wales’s Own (Yorkshire Regiment) (“Green Howards”) – The Long, Long Trail
Alexandra, Princess of Wales’s Own (Yorkshire Regiment) (“Green Howards”) – The Long, Long Trail
I don't think Colt had any .455 NS revolvers in the warehouse in mid 1940, or else the British Purchasing Commission would have grabbed them along with the .45, .357 and .38 Special New Services that they bought "off the shelf". I know none are listed in the Colt shipping ledgers as being purchased by the BPC from 1940 to 1944, as I have gone through these shipping ledgers myself.
Regards
AlanD
