What do I need to know before acquiring a .455 HE MkII in 45 colt?

[Kamerer]

A very nice local guy that I met on the 1911 forum has offered me a trade. As part of the trade, he's offered I can choose from among a few of his HEs and choose one. The one that does spark my imagination is a .455 HE MkII in .45LC.

It has a British proof mark on the barrel (the little crown), and has been re-stamped 45 Colt. Original 6.5" barrel, diamond checkered stocks w/diamond around screw hole in very good shape. No rust/pitting, but worn blue in areas, particularly the back strap. Decent dull blue coverage most other places. I am pretty sure this is the original finish.

I looked at it the other night but wanted to take a few days to think on it - I just REALLY don't need a new gun right now, I have one on lay-away, and a 66-1 and 686 I just bought in the last week. I am so broke!

So talk me into this - I had always wanted a 1917, but I had preferred .45 acp (partly because I wanted to play with moon clip reloading, I understand it's fun and fast, and I also have 2.34 gazillion .45acp rounds lying about!).

I have searched this forum for "455" and "1917" to get familiar with this gun. I read those posts and also read about it in the SCSW. He showed me a bench rest group at 50' that was acceptable, it was I think about 1.5" or 2", for a five round group.

I did not take any feeler gauges with me, but the b/c gap looked a little wide, and it had no end shake.

My understanding is this one was a British service gun buy-back then re-sold commercially in the US.

Since I do not have a pre-war S&W (oldest is a 1946/7 M&P), what should I know about the .455's? How do I evaluate them vs. a more modern S&W?

He also tells me .45acp ones bring a large premium over the .455 and the .45 Long Colt conversions. Is this correct? Perhaps I should give up on the .45acp or 1917 model and take the British 45LC as the best I'll do for a while?

Is it possible the diamond checkered grips are what it left the factory with after re-boring and re-selling?

Frankly, I will likely do the deal, but I am the kind that just likes to know what I have and all the details about things.

 

[Kamerer]

A very nice local guy that I met on the 1911 forum has offered me a trade. As part of the trade, he's offered I can choose from among a few of his HEs and choose one. The one that does spark my imagination is a .455 HE MkII in .45LC.

It has a British proof mark on the barrel (the little crown), and has been re-stamped 45 Colt. Original 6.5" barrel, diamond checkered stocks w/diamond around screw hole in very good shape. No rust/pitting, but worn blue in areas, particularly the back strap. Decent dull blue coverage most other places. I am pretty sure this is the original finish.

I looked at it the other night but wanted to take a few days to think on it - I just REALLY don't need a new gun right now, I have one on lay-away, and a 66-1 and 686 I just bought in the last week. I am so broke!

So talk me into this - I had always wanted a 1917, but I had preferred .45 acp (partly because I wanted to play with moon clip reloading, I understand it's fun and fast, and I also have 2.34 gazillion .45acp rounds lying about!).

I have searched this forum for "455" and "1917" to get familiar with this gun. I read those posts and also read about it in the SCSW. He showed me a bench rest group at 50' that was acceptable, it was I think about 1.5" or 2", for a five round group.

I did not take any feeler gauges with me, but the b/c gap looked a little wide, and it had no end shake.

My understanding is this one was a British service gun buy-back then re-sold commercially in the US.

Since I do not have a pre-war S&W (oldest is a 1946/7 M&P), what should I know about the .455's? How do I evaluate them vs. a more modern S&W?

He also tells me .45acp ones bring a large premium over the .455 and the .45 Long Colt conversions. Is this correct? Perhaps I should give up on the .45acp or 1917 model and take the British 45LC as the best I'll do for a while?

Is it possible the diamond checkered grips are what it left the factory with after re-boring and re-selling?

Frankly, I will likely do the deal, but I am the kind that just likes to know what I have and all the details about things.

 

[deadin]

He also tells me .45acp ones bring a large premium over the .455 and the .45 Long Colt conversions. Is this correct?

No. It's the unconverted .455 that will bring "premium" over the ones that have been converted. If he is feeding you that kind of line I don't know how much else he says I would believe.

 

[Kamerer]

Originally posted by deadin:

If he is feeding you that kind of line I don't know how much else he says I would believe.

No, that is likely what he said and I misunderstood it. He's a really nice guy and a CO, I trust him and we plan on doing some 1911 shooting together. I likely got the story fumbled since this is a new area to me.

I personally handled, inspected, and dry fired the gun, so I know exactly what it's like.

hey, Ocean Shores? I was thinking of going there for New Year's. Do you know any places that have corrals for horses? We thought we'd gamble on the weather and do some riding (we don't mind riding in the rain, either). Small world this one is...

 

[mikepriwer]

I just REALLY don't need a new gun right now, I have one on lay-away, and a 66-1 and 686 I just bought in the last week. I am so broke!

Frankly, I will likely do the deal.

Kamerer

You seem to have split your personality on this issue, so I think you need to talk this over
with yourself, until you can figure out which side of the fence you are on.

Personally, I'd stay away from conversions. Find a nice original .45acp 1917 . It will hold
its value better.

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[Kamerer]

Yes, I'm basically leaning towards it - it's trade, anyway, so it's no money out of pocket.

So even if it's a conversion done at S&W, that's looked down upon? I thought factory re-work was generally approved of - though obviously not treated as "original" when valuing or deciding upon "collectability."

 

[john traveler]

Things to inspect and look for in your .455 converted to .45 Colt:

1. barrel-to-cylinder gap and endshake you know about. It should be about 0.006" but a bit more will not hurt.
2. Headspace between cartridge rims and recoil shield should be about 0.006" or more.
3. Smoothly reamed and polished chambers. Some conversions were rough as a corncob.
4. smooth and clean rifling. no bulges or rings. forcing cone clean and free of cracks.
5. matching serial numbers on butt, under barrel, on cylinder, and back of extractor.
6. This conversion is suitable only for standard velocity .45 Colt lead bullet loads. The steel is pre-WWI quality. Enough said.

 

[john traveler]

It's not likely that the conversion was done at S&W. The surplus British guns were imported by the tens of thousands during the 1950's and early 1960's. Conversions done by individual 'smiths and surplus arms outfits like "Ye Olde Hunter", "Interarms", etc. that advertised in the American Rifleman and Guns and Ammo magazine.

 

[Kamerer]

OK, thanks for that. I'll go over all that before I finally decide. I think the gap was likely about .006 or .007 - I'm not "great" at eyeballing but I have tested enough to know what's a "little wide" of the .004 most of my newer guns have.

SCSW says some came back and were factory re-done, and the S&W catalogs from the early/mid 20s offer the gun from the factory (.45 LC British/Canadian Service 455 guns or something - I saw it in a 1926 catalog I believe).

I was guessing this was Factory done since the chambers were really sharp and shiny, and the re-stamping was so well done. But I guess it could have been by someone else and I don't know.

I will get it lettered after I get it and see what that says - I certainly don't know that it's factory done, I guess, that was an assumption and possibly an incorrect one.

Roger on the light loads. I figured I'd just use Cowboy loads or the like. No carrying this for bears! I have others for that.

 

[handejector]

Decent dull blue coverage most other places. I am pretty sure this is the original finish.

THIS concerns me- the 455's had a finish that was never really exceeded by S&W- they'll knock your eyes out. If it is "dull", it ain't sounding good.

So even if it's a conversion done at S&W, that's looked down upon? I thought factory re-work was generally approved of - though obviously not treated as "original" when valuing or deciding upon "collectability."

As John T. points out, MOST are NOT factory reams, and even if it was, you stand a better chance of naming the guy on the grassy knoll than proving it.

Unless you are getting it CHEAP, and I don't believe you've said, I recommend another choice. Even trading, you are talking about money, evntually, for you, or your heirs. A medium condition 1917 will continue to appreciate, and shoot better and cheaper. The reamed 455 will always be a turkey. Just free advice- worth all you have to pay for it!

 

[Kamerer]

OK, I may not be explaining it correctly. What I meant by "dull" was the fact the finish had been used, etc., not "applied" dull/parkerized. Here's a picture of it. The .44 HE is not part of the trade, just in the same picture. It does not have those Franzite, anymore, it has the diamond checkered magnas it came with (They are back on it now):

I think we are nominally valuing it at $350 - it's part of a trade for a customized Caspian 1911 top end I have. For it's grade, it appears to me to be in line with the value in the SCSW.

 

[handejector]

Assuming you mean the bottom gun in the pic, not too shabby. If converted well as you say, and working well, probably OK at 300-350, but NOT something that will appreciate much or always be an easy sell like a 1917.

SCSW says some came back and were factory re-done, and the S&W catalogs from the early/mid 20s offer the gun from the factory (.45 LC British/Canadian Service 455 guns or something - I saw it in a 1926 catalog I believe).

I think maybe you saw it in some non-factroy catalog like Bannerman's or similar. I am fairly familiar with factory catalogs, and I don't believe the factory EVER advertised or cataloged the conversion. They used the Brown 1925 catalog until 1931, merely changing the separate price list if necessary. The only issue between 25 and 31 is the 1926 pocket catalog, and it does not mention the conversion.

 

[Kamerer]

Thank you for your input, Lee.

You are correct, I went and found the catalog on line, 1925. They listed it as ".455 British and Canadian Service" but they don't mention caliber options or conversions. I am new to this period so just trying to learn.

This one was British I believe from the Crown on the barrel vs. the crossed pennants that I am reading denotes a Canadian model.

I have been thinking this fall as I wrapped up several 1946 to 1986 purchases that it was time to take a look at some old HE's and get familiar with that. I think this will give me a reasonably priced starting point, and it's a shooter. I can get some period leather and ride (horses) with it periodically and have some fun with it.

I told the owner I wanted it and made a counter, so hopefully he'll email me back and we'll have a deal shortly. The owner uses this forum and he's says he's read with interest this thread (I told him the other night I'd likely post here, so it wasn't a "secret")!

 

[deadin]

Ocean Shores? I was thinking of going there for New Year's. Do you know any places that have corrals for horses?

The only stable I know of is Nan-Sea Stables.
They have horses they rent in the summer for beach riding. I don't know if they are open in the winter. They advertise in the yellow pages as "Boarding & Training". You might give them a call at 360 289-0194

 

[Buford57]

FWIW, while diamond magnas will definitely look better than the Franzite stags, I don't believe they are correct for this revolver, either. Checkered service grips, I think.

I recently picked up a .455 HE converted to .45 ACP. It is a great shooter, even with ball ammo.

 

[deadin]

the crossed pennants that I am reading denotes a Canadian model.

I've got a .455 Triple Lock that is definitely British that also has crossed pennants. The Canadian property mark is a Broad Arrow in a "C".

 

[Texas Star]

Is that pitting or rust on the right side and on the trigger? Can you get it off?

T-Star

 

[Sgt BB]

The stag grips are by Fitz and way better than Franzite from Chicago.
The piece has matching S#'s in all four locations per the above post.
It is the first in a collection of 10 pre-war "exposed ejector rod" revolvers
( S&W + Colt ) and the main reason I joined the Forum. So much information,
speculation, cautious optimism and down-right genuine effort to perpetuate the
"sport" of collecting fine old firearns.
Thanks!

 

[Kamerer]

Hi Texas Star -

SgtBB and I re-arranged ownership on a few items, and it is now mine. What you see is a some very slight freckling in the blue - the gun could be refinished to 100%.

I think my plan is to get some period leather for it, and shoot it and carry it occasionally when I'm not in "serious" bear country. It has some excellent diamond centered magna's on it that I think I will take off to use in trade for some correct medallion stocks correct to it. I'll likely get it lettered, someday find out if there is a UK outfit that can trace the S/N and acceptance stamp and find out where it went in the great war.

Probably I'll stash some dollars aside here and there so that in a few years I can get it professionally re-done and bring it up to 100% restored to have as a Great War piece to hand down.

I'm curious about a factory letter, though I doubt it will tell me what I want to know - I think it was factory re-bored and re-sold. The cylinder is too perfect, and still retains the original S/N and o/a dimensions despite the mods. To accomodate the long colt rim, the rear cylinder wasn't cut, but the bores and the hand were semi-recessed to hold the 45 LC rim. Some pretty fancy machine work.

The magnas on it feel amazing - They have a "palm swell" cut into them so they fit wonderfully. At first I assumed it was wear, but the checkering is razor sharp and even everywhere. I didn't know this was done in the past - no modern Magna's I handled very felt that natural to my hand.