What do we call a 38 S&W Safety Hammerless 2"
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Alk8944
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I believe all of the 1 1/2" and 2" top-break revolvers are commonly referred to as "Bicycle Guns", whether they are .22, .32. or .38 caliber. I don't recall ever seeing any other name applied.
2" 38 S&W's
Smith & Wesson refereed to them as "Pocket Revolvers", "Short Barreled Revolvers", and "Undercover" Guns. Here's a scan of a couple of pages from a undated brochure, from maybe the 1940's. The brochure was about 38 caliber revolvers.
None of these names had the charisma of "Bicycle Revolver" however!
B. Mower
Smith & Wesson refereed to them as "Pocket Revolvers", "Short Barreled Revolvers", and "Undercover" Guns. Here's a scan of a couple of pages from a undated brochure, from maybe the 1940's. The brochure was about 38 caliber revolvers.
None of these names had the charisma of "Bicycle Revolver" however!
B. Mower
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I call them "Cool".
I can remember as a kid back in the 50s, gun shops and shows would have a shoe box of them for sale. They were a perfect size for my 10 yr. old hand.
I have never seen a 22 Safety, plus I guess that almost all non-lettered guns are cut barrel revolvers. Remember that these guns spanned over 50 years of production and the advertising and marketing changed with the times. They are still pretty neat and I own a few, but am sure all but one are cut. I still contend that only the 32 Safety was ever called a "Bicycle Gun" by the factory as noted in one ad below. I also am not so sure that these guns were originally designed to appeal to those who want to be protected against thieves. I think it was a matter of safety that drove the company to name the 32 a Bicycle Gun rather than personal protection. Note the second advertisement showing a hammer gun going off as the cyclist falls. Afterall, the name denotes the gun's purpose - "Safety".
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Boulder350
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The 32 S&W Standard Production Bicycle gun appeared to be offered in 1898. I have one that letters being shipped Nov 11th, 1898. The serial number is in the 86k range and the letter states that it was one of the first 2" 32's that was shipped. My opinion is that there are way more 32 S&W 2" guns than 38 S&W 2" guns. Here is a picture of from a turn of the century catalog. It only lists the 32 available in the short barrel form and calls it a Bicycle gun.
When were the 2 inch 38 S&W Safety Hammerless guns made available as a standard production gun? In my research of serial numbers it appears to me that they didn't offer it as a production gun until the 5th model and it was late in production. Does anyone know when they were a standard option?
When were the 2 inch 38 S&W Safety Hammerless guns made available as a standard production gun? In my research of serial numbers it appears to me that they didn't offer it as a production gun until the 5th model and it was late in production. Does anyone know when they were a standard option?
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Doesnt that thug in the ad with the lady, look like Ernest Borgnine? From that Sam Peckinpah movie, "Wild Bunch".
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Bicycle gun info
I agree with Mark. Many more 32's were made than 38's. However, they did make the 2" barrel early on. I've seen and documented a few shipped as early as 1912. Which was still part of the bicycle gun era. I have found that the term bicycle gun was no longer used after about 1915 (WWI) from all catalog reference. I'm still looking though.
Murph
I agree with Mark. Many more 32's were made than 38's. However, they did make the 2" barrel early on. I've seen and documented a few shipped as early as 1912. Which was still part of the bicycle gun era. I have found that the term bicycle gun was no longer used after about 1915 (WWI) from all catalog reference. I'm still looking though.
Murph
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The 38, 2" would have been a handy little gun for the dough boys in Europe. A last ditch weapon against the Huns.
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Boulder350
Member
I know the 2" 38's were custom ordered before they were made in production runs. Not sure when the production runs started.
As a side note on the 38 S&W SH with 1 1/2" barrels, there appears to be way more than 15 made. I have found 7 guns with this barrel length that I are custom orders from the factory. One is lettered as a special order being shipped to West Virginia but Roy could not find the invoice stating the barrel length. It shipped to Bluefield Hardware in West Virginia in 1921. Five are lettered with the short 1 1/2" barrel shipping in 1928, 1929, 1929, 1930, and 1938. The last one I found looked real but is not lettered. In the short time I have been looking I'm sure I did not find 40% of all that were made. My guess it there could be 50 or more made.
For the 32 SH with a 1 1/2" barrel I have only found 2 that letter. I owned one that went to Ohio in 1928. The other went to West Virginia in 1926.
As a side note on the 38 S&W SH with 1 1/2" barrels, there appears to be way more than 15 made. I have found 7 guns with this barrel length that I are custom orders from the factory. One is lettered as a special order being shipped to West Virginia but Roy could not find the invoice stating the barrel length. It shipped to Bluefield Hardware in West Virginia in 1921. Five are lettered with the short 1 1/2" barrel shipping in 1928, 1929, 1929, 1930, and 1938. The last one I found looked real but is not lettered. In the short time I have been looking I'm sure I did not find 40% of all that were made. My guess it there could be 50 or more made.
For the 32 SH with a 1 1/2" barrel I have only found 2 that letter. I owned one that went to Ohio in 1928. The other went to West Virginia in 1926.
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I don't know the first thing about these things. The earliest catalog I have (1925) shows two "Safety Hammerless Revolver" models---one in .32, the other in .38. The .32 is offered with a 3" barrel, the .38 with 3 1/4" and 4". The hyperbole preceding the display sections is almost all devoted to the safety aspects-----although the headline is "THE QUICKEST, SAFEST, MOST DEPENDABLE POCKET ARM EVER MADE"---suggesting they weren't the least bit shy about tooting their own horn!
Ralph Tremaine
Ralph Tremaine
I have 2" 38 Safety, 3rd Model, serial #113xxx that was shipped June, 4, 1898. It letters as being shipped with a 2" barrel, probably a special order. The gun was refinished by the factory.
B. Mower
Availability??
It's an amazing thing really when you research and study catalog history from the 1870's up to the 1920's.
Like clockwork what you will notice is that literally all the Major Distributors offered only what they wanted to sell. Not necessarily what the factory offered.
The vast majority offered very limited barrel lengths. In fact the bicycle gun was the first advertisement that offered the 2" barrel for sale in catalogs and advertisements.
Makes me wonder if more short and long barrels would have sold if the customer actually knew they existed!!
I guarantee they had no clue and just chose from what the distributor offered.
Murph
It's an amazing thing really when you research and study catalog history from the 1870's up to the 1920's.
Like clockwork what you will notice is that literally all the Major Distributors offered only what they wanted to sell. Not necessarily what the factory offered.
The vast majority offered very limited barrel lengths. In fact the bicycle gun was the first advertisement that offered the 2" barrel for sale in catalogs and advertisements.
Makes me wonder if more short and long barrels would have sold if the customer actually knew they existed!!
I guarantee they had no clue and just chose from what the distributor offered.
Murph
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I'm not real sure I get Murph's point here (distributor catalogs). That's most certainly because I don't have any, never have had any, and quite clearly never studied them.
I have exactly one (authentic) catalog from S&W ---1925. It should be noted it doesn't say anything about 1925, but the fellow I bought it from said it was 1925-----and I studied it to the point of confirming all the items shown were available in 1925----and none that weren't. Maybe he did the same thing, and neither one of us knows for sure what we're talking about. The very best part about it is they have a bunch of stuff in it besides the guns----stuff I'll guarandamntee you, you don't know the first thing about---at least I didn't--stuff about the difference between fixed sight and target guns (my thing)---besides the sights---which they DON'T say the first thing about---not that I figured they needed to do.
I have two other S&W catalogs, one from 1932--the other from 1941---both reprints from Cornell Publications. I sat and stared at those for a spell, and wondered why a manufacturer would pay good money to put out a catalog with a date on it----figuring I'd put out a new catalog when I had something to add to it. That was puzzlement #1.
Now the very best part of the 1932 catalog is on the last page---which is dutifully numbered (48)---and sings the praises of the 357 Magnum (puzzlement #2)----for the enlightenment of their customers/potential customers. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry at that point, and got a hold of Cornell Publications to inquire as to just what the hell was going on??!! They explained, with a straight face, to the effect their customers wanted dates. I explained, with a straight face, to the effect their customers were morons (excluding myself of course), and that they (Cornell) were a bunch of crooks.
We agreed to disagree, and a good time was had by all!
I tell this tale in the event any of you might be tempted to send your good money to Cornell----which would be all well and good of course----if you were interested in a work of fiction---rather than a "reprint"---which is what they advertise---then AND now!
God bless us---every one!
Ralph Tremaine
I have exactly one (authentic) catalog from S&W ---1925. It should be noted it doesn't say anything about 1925, but the fellow I bought it from said it was 1925-----and I studied it to the point of confirming all the items shown were available in 1925----and none that weren't. Maybe he did the same thing, and neither one of us knows for sure what we're talking about. The very best part about it is they have a bunch of stuff in it besides the guns----stuff I'll guarandamntee you, you don't know the first thing about---at least I didn't--stuff about the difference between fixed sight and target guns (my thing)---besides the sights---which they DON'T say the first thing about---not that I figured they needed to do.
I have two other S&W catalogs, one from 1932--the other from 1941---both reprints from Cornell Publications. I sat and stared at those for a spell, and wondered why a manufacturer would pay good money to put out a catalog with a date on it----figuring I'd put out a new catalog when I had something to add to it. That was puzzlement #1.
Now the very best part of the 1932 catalog is on the last page---which is dutifully numbered (48)---and sings the praises of the 357 Magnum (puzzlement #2)----for the enlightenment of their customers/potential customers. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry at that point, and got a hold of Cornell Publications to inquire as to just what the hell was going on??!! They explained, with a straight face, to the effect their customers wanted dates. I explained, with a straight face, to the effect their customers were morons (excluding myself of course), and that they (Cornell) were a bunch of crooks.
We agreed to disagree, and a good time was had by all!
I tell this tale in the event any of you might be tempted to send your good money to Cornell----which would be all well and good of course----if you were interested in a work of fiction---rather than a "reprint"---which is what they advertise---then AND now!
God bless us---every one!
Ralph Tremaine
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I think that one thing that collectors need to remember is that many of the "names" that we associate with certain S&W's were born within the collector community. They were never used by the factory or listed in the many catalogs available. The "Ladysmith" is one that comes to mind. As I learned the story, supposedly the gun was so small that it could be carried by "ladies" of the night in their purse or fur muff. Not wishing to promote this connection, S&W did not use this terminology to refer to this revolver even though the collector community had no issue.
Ralph as far as Cornell Publications is concerned, my understanding is that they take a legitimate S&W catalog and reprint it so that it can be mass produced. For collectors not interested in collecting original paper which may or may not be readily available or within their budget it is a viable resource of information. If they are adding pages from a different catalog then they are *******izing the original and effectively blurring the real history. I have always avoided buying their products.
I have quite a collection of old S&W paper and catalogs so I will have to dig them out and take a look. Unfortunately we are remodeling so much of this stuff is under protective cover and tucked away. I should be getting to these items over the next few weeks so will be able to look.
Ralph as far as Cornell Publications is concerned, my understanding is that they take a legitimate S&W catalog and reprint it so that it can be mass produced. For collectors not interested in collecting original paper which may or may not be readily available or within their budget it is a viable resource of information. If they are adding pages from a different catalog then they are *******izing the original and effectively blurring the real history. I have always avoided buying their products.
I have quite a collection of old S&W paper and catalogs so I will have to dig them out and take a look. Unfortunately we are remodeling so much of this stuff is under protective cover and tucked away. I should be getting to these items over the next few weeks so will be able to look.
Original catalogs
Ralph,
I'll post some photo's when it stops raining here. It's pouring and I don't like to take out my "original" catalogs when its damp.
I have over 200 distributor catalogs. 60% are originals. The other 40% are older reprints from the 1960's etc from various publishers. I do have some reprints from Cornell and I personally have no complaints. I respect anyone who makes an honest attempt to preserve the past and at a very reasonable price.
A significant portion of my catalog collection is from the late Ed Cornett. He had some wonderful early original catalogs and about 10 early reprints. I purchased his entire collection of early catalogs that date back to 1883.
Still, all of them follow the same limited pattern of selling the customer only what the Distributor wanted to sell. NOT what the factory offered.
Of all my catalogs NONE offered the 2", 6",8", or 10" barrel for the topbreak revolver. NONE! That is from 1876(Original) to 1914 (original) Distributor catalogs and everything in between.
The only short barrels were during the bicycle gun era and the only long barrels were target models and parts.
Murph
Ralph,
I'll post some photo's when it stops raining here. It's pouring and I don't like to take out my "original" catalogs when its damp.
I have over 200 distributor catalogs. 60% are originals. The other 40% are older reprints from the 1960's etc from various publishers. I do have some reprints from Cornell and I personally have no complaints. I respect anyone who makes an honest attempt to preserve the past and at a very reasonable price.
A significant portion of my catalog collection is from the late Ed Cornett. He had some wonderful early original catalogs and about 10 early reprints. I purchased his entire collection of early catalogs that date back to 1883.
Still, all of them follow the same limited pattern of selling the customer only what the Distributor wanted to sell. NOT what the factory offered.
Of all my catalogs NONE offered the 2", 6",8", or 10" barrel for the topbreak revolver. NONE! That is from 1876(Original) to 1914 (original) Distributor catalogs and everything in between.
The only short barrels were during the bicycle gun era and the only long barrels were target models and parts.
Murph
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Distributor's/Hardware catalogs are notoriously inaccurate and often did not reflect the factory catalogs. I have a feeling that many large companies like Shapleigh's, Tryon, Bekeart, Hartley, Folsom, Simmons, etc. had a staff of gunsmiths, engravers, and re-stocking craftsmen. If one can cut a barrel in their basement, how hard could it be to do it in the shops of the big hardware stores??
Chronology of barrel lengths are below from 50 years of S&W catalogs. Options and inventory kept dropping in the Twentieth Century
1887 - 38 Safety - 3 1/4", 4", 5", 6", 8", 10"
1901 - 32 Safety - 3", 3 1/4"
1901 - 38 Safety - 3 1/4", 4", 5", 6"
1903 - 32 Safety - 3", 3 1/4", 6"
1903 - 38 Safety - 3 1/4", 4", 5", 6"
1912 - 32 Safety - 3", 3 1/2"
1912 - 38 Safety - 3 1/4", 4", 6"
1916 - 32 Safety - 3"
1916 - 32 Safety - 3 1/4", 4", 5", 6"
1923 - 32 Safety - 3"
1923 - 32 Safety - 3 1/4", 4", 6"
1925 - 32 Safety - 3"
1925 - 32 Safety - 3 1/4", 4"
1931 - 32 Safety - 3"
1931 - 38 Safety - 3 1/4", 4"
1938 - 32 Safety - 2", 3"
1938 - 38 Safety - 2", 3 1/4", 4"
1941 - 38 Safety - 2"
We usually consider the offerings in the catalogs as standard production ordering options, with special orders sometimes filled by the factory. By the 1930s, I believe they were working off existing inventory and available parts, so the list of barrel lengths kept getting smaller up to WWII. Of course what they offer does not mean that there were many sold, just look at the 1887 offering of 8" and 10" barrels for the 38 Safety.
Chronology of barrel lengths are below from 50 years of S&W catalogs. Options and inventory kept dropping in the Twentieth Century
1887 - 38 Safety - 3 1/4", 4", 5", 6", 8", 10"
1901 - 32 Safety - 3", 3 1/4"
1901 - 38 Safety - 3 1/4", 4", 5", 6"
1903 - 32 Safety - 3", 3 1/4", 6"
1903 - 38 Safety - 3 1/4", 4", 5", 6"
1912 - 32 Safety - 3", 3 1/2"
1912 - 38 Safety - 3 1/4", 4", 6"
1916 - 32 Safety - 3"
1916 - 32 Safety - 3 1/4", 4", 5", 6"
1923 - 32 Safety - 3"
1923 - 32 Safety - 3 1/4", 4", 6"
1925 - 32 Safety - 3"
1925 - 32 Safety - 3 1/4", 4"
1931 - 32 Safety - 3"
1931 - 38 Safety - 3 1/4", 4"
1938 - 32 Safety - 2", 3"
1938 - 38 Safety - 2", 3 1/4", 4"
1941 - 38 Safety - 2"
We usually consider the offerings in the catalogs as standard production ordering options, with special orders sometimes filled by the factory. By the 1930s, I believe they were working off existing inventory and available parts, so the list of barrel lengths kept getting smaller up to WWII. Of course what they offer does not mean that there were many sold, just look at the 1887 offering of 8" and 10" barrels for the 38 Safety.
Barrel lengths
Some list barrel lengths but most look like these.
This I believe is what stimulated rarity. Limited options at a time when the customer had no clue what the factory offered. They were totally reliant on what the Distributor offered for sale.
The Distributor of course would use sales pitches like" THIS IS OUR HIGHEST SELLING ITEM" or MOST POPULAR MODEL!
Had the customer been offered a 2" barrel or had known they were available the results would likely have been different.
The bicycle gun is an excellent example. They were clearly advertised and large numbers were sold. Especially by competitors like Iver Johnson and Harrington & Richardson.
In fact the late Bill Goforths book speculates that Iver Johnson actually cut 3" barrel 32 Topbreaks already manufactured to supply the 2" barrel bicycle gun demand. I agree with him. There are a lot of them out there professionally cut but like Glowe mentioned, it could have been the Distributor doing the cutting!
Murph
Some list barrel lengths but most look like these.
This I believe is what stimulated rarity. Limited options at a time when the customer had no clue what the factory offered. They were totally reliant on what the Distributor offered for sale.
The Distributor of course would use sales pitches like" THIS IS OUR HIGHEST SELLING ITEM" or MOST POPULAR MODEL!
Had the customer been offered a 2" barrel or had known they were available the results would likely have been different.
The bicycle gun is an excellent example. They were clearly advertised and large numbers were sold. Especially by competitors like Iver Johnson and Harrington & Richardson.
In fact the late Bill Goforths book speculates that Iver Johnson actually cut 3" barrel 32 Topbreaks already manufactured to supply the 2" barrel bicycle gun demand. I agree with him. There are a lot of them out there professionally cut but like Glowe mentioned, it could have been the Distributor doing the cutting!
Murph
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