What does refinishing do to the value of an older gun. (Straightline)

[aeronut04]

I hope someone can help me, as I have been told by someone that when something gets refinished it loses value, I was told lowered to the next level down. The Straightline pistol has only had the top half refinished, and I was to told by S&W.
The price on Excellent plus is $1200.00, and the next down is $700.00.
The original case has some rust, and pitting to the finish, and the inside, the green felt is worn, the 2 piece cleaning rod is there, but no screw driver, no paperwork.
I hope someone can shed some light on this for me, serial # 103X, the lower half is in great shape. Thanks in advance.

 

[aeronut04]

I hope someone can help me, as I have been told by someone that when something gets refinished it loses value, I was told lowered to the next level down. The Straightline pistol has only had the top half refinished, and I was to told by S&W.
The price on Excellent plus is $1200.00, and the next down is $700.00.
The original case has some rust, and pitting to the finish, and the inside, the green felt is worn, the 2 piece cleaning rod is there, but no screw driver, no paperwork.
I hope someone can shed some light on this for me, serial # 103X, the lower half is in great shape. Thanks in advance.

 

[rburg]

So many variables here that any rule you want to use as a guide will be full of exceptions.

Generally, refinishing almost destroys any collector value in a firearm. The exception to that is when the gun is so rare that no one ever even sees one of them. Its still worth significantly less than the same gun, ugly as it might be, if left untouched.

With somewhat newer or more available guns, you should just figure that any money spent on refinish work was wasted, and the money expended was for the benefit of the original person while he owned that gun. Never forget that the quality of the refinish plays a big role, and a poor job is much worse than just leaving it alone. Even the factory puts out a bad refinish from time to time. Most shade tree gunsmiths do more damage than good.

There are artists in the trade. Some are more capable than the factory, but not many. An exception to the rule are engravers. All non-factory engraved guns are refinished, by defination. But skill and quality are even bigger factors there.

Now to the "books". They are worse than notorious for being wrong. Worse, even if the price ranges were dead on when written, by the time the book gets edited and published, then shipped and finally sold, way too much time may have expired. Some books can't even get the pricing on models and sub models right. They can't even identify the rare and desireable ones.

As a test for you, pick up 2 or 3 price guides. Select one gun and look for the price each lists. You could get rich buying at the low one and selling at the high guess.

Worse than all the above, prices are regional. Kali prices are way too high due to legal impediments to importing them. Sometimes finding handguns in hunting country is nearly impossible. And when you do find one, sometimes the price is low because no one wants them. Some places don't have gunshows. Some gunshows are tiny and there may be one or no examples of what you seek. Anyone with one can charge what he pleases. If you go to a huge show and there are 50 examples of a certain gun (like 6" M&P), you may get a terrific deal because you have a motivated seller.

Price guides are fun to read. Use them for amusement value only.

 

[deadin]

Most grading systems are based on the amount of original finish. A refinished gun has exactly 0% original finish left, so take it from there. I always try to estimate a refinished gun as what the gun is worth with no original finish plus a credit based on what the refinish cost. A good refinish (Ford's, etc) will add value, but will not bring it up to an original finish value. (Regardless of what it costs

) Also there's a big difference between a "refinish" and a "restoration".

BTW, I'm curious. You said the Straightline in question had the upper half refinished according to S&W. How was this arrived at?
A letter, a trip to Springfield, Roy at a gunshow, or what?

 

[aeronut04]

The members of the gun club he belonged to had said it may have been, no certainty, it looked nice, but what percentage of the original blue is left 40% the lower half of the straight line is smaller than the top. Any idea SWAG of the value?
Thanks again.

 

[deadin]

I understand your pain.

SCSW3 shows the Straightline $1200, 700, 550, 425 350, 250,150 Exc down to Poor.
Standard Catalog of Firearms show it at $2250, 1600, 1000, 500, 300 Exc down to Poor
The Blue Book (25th Anniversary Edition 2004) show it at $1850 down to $315 from 100% down to 10%.
The only currently one for sale that I could quickly find ( http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=4615 ) is listed at $1495, no case, ringed barrel and probably in the high 80% finish.
I don’t know what your pain threshold is, but you don’t see these for sale very often and if Jim S. would sell me one of his at the prices in SCSW3, I would jump at it.

I know this doesn’t answer your question about what the refinish does to value. All I can say is that it is a personal decision. There are some that wouldn’t touch it at any price and there are those that really don’t care as long as it looks good. I fall somewhere in the middle and, as long as it wasn’t a “butcher job” refinish, I would be willing to pay SCSW3 prices even for a refinish.

 

[aeronut04]

Hi again,
that is really what I needed to hear, and I can say I did see the one on collectors firarms, there is a box only on Joe Salter firearms, for $595.00 with screwdriver only. I probably should buy and re sell the box, and keep the screwdriver, since that is missing on this particular gun I'm looking at. The bottom half of the straightline is 55-60% of the total surface, that remains original, and that part of it is 97%. So I will try to get it into my hands again permanently, and I Will post photos when this does happen. THanks again to all.

 

[mikepriwer]

Ae4

I don't understand your motives here. You really don't "know" anything about this gun.
All the information you have is hear-say. How do you know the bottom half has not been
refinished ? Did the good folks who brought you the story that the top-half "may" have been
redone at the factory, tell you this nonsense ? There is never going to be any documentation
on this gun, so you when you get ready to sell this gun to someone else, you will have to
either remember the original story, or perhaps enhance it a bit.

This gun is a mish-mosh. Leave it alone. Over time, there will be good straight-lines offered
for sale, that will not be messed up like this one is. Don't buy bad guns - buy good ones.

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[deadin]

There are some that wouldn’t touch it at any price

Mike,
I was specifically thinking of you when I wrote this.

 

[mikepriwer]

Dean

What can I say ? The gun is a sows ear, yet its being touted as a stained silk purse.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[230grfmj]

Originally posted by rburg:
So many variables here that any rule you want to use as a guide will be full of exceptions.

Generally, refinishing almost destroys any collector value in a firearm. The exception to that is when the gun is so rare that no one ever even sees one of them. Its still worth significantly less than the same gun, ugly as it might be, if left untouched.............

There are artists in the trade. Some are more capable than the factory, but not many. An exception to the rule are engravers. All non-factory engraved guns are refinished, by defination. But skill and quality are even bigger factors there.

I do not know if the "straightline" value is any different than any other gun that has been refinished & I agree with Dick that the collector value of a refinished gun is now gone. It still may be a gun that is a true joy to own, but no longer an original gun.

I have seen some gun owners (maybe those that own primarily refinished guns) say that a refinished gun is just as valuable as one that is an "original finish" gun and even in some cases claim that mismatched grips do not decrease the value of the refinished (or unrefinished gun for that matter) gun either.

If given my choice I would pay far far more for an original never refinished gun with all the numbers still matching as original.

How much the value is decreased by the gun being refinished is a subject that could lead to a lengthy discussion.

 

[gunfish]

Books that estimate value assign value based on original finish remaining. Refinish equals zero original finish.

Shooting a high condition collectable gun will lower it's value eventually. A refinshed collectable offers the chance to experience shooting it. I think most folks buy guns to shoot, I know that I shoot mine.

When you buy a refinished gun you are "on your own". I bought this post war long action Heavy Duty for 240$. It has been refinished in nickel. The refinish job is good and the action parts were left alone. A high condition original finish example could cost near 1000$. I can shoot this and enjoy the experience and feeling of this type of S&W. I will not live long enough to lower its value by shooting it.

As a shooter it's worth having for myself. It's value to someone else is another thing altogether.

 

[deadin]

As a shooter it's worth having for myself. It's value to someone else is another thing altogether.

That's the way I look at it. I don't mind having a refinish, bu the price is much more important than the finish. (i.e. Just because it "looks good" doesn't do much for the value.)

 

[DWFAN]

I see a new generation of buyer that cares more about looking good than originality. This confuses the market and raises all kinds of issues with pricing. There are people who will pay more for a restored or refinshed gun because it looks nice. Won't matter if you tell them other wise.
DW

 

[therevjay]

What everyone has said about 'refinishing' lowering the resale value of a gun, is quite true.

That said I can't figure out why.

For example, if you came across a '40 Ford or '36 Indian with nice original paint. Well of course you would leave it "as is".

If however it was a "rusty piece of junk" after restoreing it mechanicly, you would repaint it.

Why are guns differant?

If it's mine. I don't much care what others say. If I think it would look nicer refinished, (unless it has historic value) then it gets re blued/nickled, whatever.

However I do not buy anything with resale in mind. If I buy it I plan on keeping it.

 

[DHENRY]

therevjay,
It's been hashed and rehashed here and elsewhere, but here's my read:
A collector piece is only 'original' once. It can be made 'perfect' over and over.
Originality counts, BUT...
There is a growing number of folks who appreciate the 'collector car' school of gun collecting, and as proof I recommend you look at the work of artists like David Chicoine, Doug Turnbull and Gene Williams.
Don

 

[mikepriwer]

T

Its not yours to figure out why - its only yours to understand.

Cars can be restored - guns and furniture lose almost all their value.
Like I say - just know it.

You should care what others say. Otherwise, when that inevitable days comes
that your guns get sold - and that day will come - someone will care.
Its like - if you don't know history, you are doomed to repeat it.

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[handejector]

Originally posted by therevjay:
What everyone has said about 'refinishing' lowering the resale value of a gun, is quite true.

That said I can't figure out why.

For example, if you came across a '40 Ford or '36 Indian with nice original paint. Well of course you would leave it "as is".

If however it was a "rusty piece of junk" after restoreing it mechanicly, you would repaint it.

Why are guns differant?

If it's mine. I don't much care what others say. If I think it would look nicer refinished, (unless it has historic value) then it gets re blued/nickled, whatever.

However I do not buy anything with resale in mind. If I buy it I plan on keeping it.

Comparing collectible cars and collectible guns is an Apples and Oranges game. They have too many differences in the type of usable life they possess to be compared sensibly. About 100% of the cars people purchase are going to be used daily, and the buyer knows he will be purchasing another in a few short years because THEY WEAR OUT. How mnay 40 Fords have turned up in 100% ORIGINAL Condition and totally UNDRIVEN(unfired)??
No, cars are an EXPENDABLE commodity. Parts replacements are EXPECTED as we use them in our daily lives. We leave them outside in the sun, rain, snow, wind, sand, dust, road salt, etc, etc. It's so damn tough to bring one in the house on a rainy night and wipe it down! They are not handed down, generation to generation, in very nice condition.
A gun, on the other hand, can survive for centuries and be pristine. It can actually have PERFORMED its purpose in those centuries, if all that purpose consisted of was to provide a secure feeling in the home or manor.
Since the purpose and intended use of the items is so vastly different, it does little good to compare them.
A few guns survive a century or more in pristine condition, and MANY more survive in varying degrees of good condition. The pristine examples will always set the pricing standard. IF a 40 Ford or 1st year Vette or a Hemi Cuda Convertible turned up in pristine, unaltered, totally ORIGINAL condition, you would see a new level of pricing that would stagger you.
So, the bottom line is still Apples and Oranges- guns are often found in a high percentage of original condition, cars are NOT.
One can only savor a specific filet mignon or fine cigar ONCE- it cannot be restored.

 

[opoefc]

Ae4, I agree with Mike & Dean. The gun has too many negatives to be considered, so unless it's for sale at just a few dollars, forget it. That box that Salter has, has been on his web page for eons, and it's in poor shape. Much better ones , with the tools, have sold for less at recent auctions, and I'm not real sure the screwdriver is an original S&W product, and Joe won't guarantee it. You would have a hard time getting 1/2 what Salter wants for that box, sans screwdriver, IMHO.