Wyatt Earp
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So all these guys: http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/530103904/m/3421025313 must be liars?
What has happened to Smith and Wesson Quality Control.
- Thread starter Cruiser RN
- Start date
I have a hard time with this part of your statement. Having had the side plate off a number of my smith revolvers I can tell you for sure that there is no room inside one for filings and shavings. The sideplate would be impossible to put back on the gun.
Now as to their quality control, the roughest looking guns I have opened up have been the old ones that had machined parts, especially those from the mid to late 1970 time frame when Bangor Punta IIRC was the owner.
Smith IMHO has always made Monday and Friday guns which is why you have to carefully inspect them before you buy. But They do stand behind their guns and have an excellent repair shop and free return shipping.
JMHO YMMV
Tom M
Member
You are incorrect. I've had 2 model 60s with prevalent detritus from the machining process. We're not talking about chunks here, but filings and small shavings, which can gum up the works very well indeed.
5 of the last 6 new S&W revolvers I bought have had to go back to the factory before I could shoot them. QC is non-existant.
What revolvers did you buy and when, what were the probelms that needed a return trip??
I can tell you that I dont disagree about the QC being spotty, the last new one I bought was a 627PC last March, the trigger was horrible on it, a PC gun no less, with all machined parts. The MIM guns have better triggers in my experience. I called S&W and they sent me a label and apologized. After some thought I decided to do the work myself. Took off the side plate, removed the safety 1st. Then I put in a reduced return spring 14lbs, stoned the rebound slide, and put in a bossed mainspring. I dry fired it a bunch and now its great. Smith did offer to fix it, but I wanted the safety out, and I didnt think they would put in the springs it needed, so what was the point???
What revolvers did you buy and when, what were the probelms that needed a return trip??
I can tell you that I dont disagree about the QC being spotty, the last new one I bought was a 627PC last March, the trigger was horrible on it, a PC gun no less, with all machined parts. The MIM guns have better triggers in my experience. I called S&W and they sent me a label and apologized. After some thought I decided to do the work myself. Took off the side plate, removed the safety 1st. Then I put in a reduced return spring 14lbs, stoned the rebound slide, and put in a bossed mainspring. I dry fired it a bunch and now its great. Smith did offer to fix it, but I wanted the safety out, and I didnt think they would put in the springs it needed, so what was the point???
GLC1
Member
I really don't care for these types of complaining posts and don't usually respond to them. But, I finally felt compelled to respond and add my two cents, for what it is worth.
I've bought two new Smiths this year, a M25 Classic with nearly 1000 rounds through it and a M629. I shot the new 629 for the first time today with zero problems after about 100 rounds. Both new Smiths look and shoot just fine. No failures to fire, no MIM part failures, no lock problems, and fit and finish are excellent. I've got six other Smiths, some with many thousands of rounds through them. They all worked fine out of the box and were well finished too.
Sure, you'll get a lemon once and a while, and quite often its good to hear about a problem, but people generally like to complain, hence the constant flow of negatively critical posts. What you don't hear much is that the near total majority of guns, Smith's included, look and function just fine with no complaints.
Really, if everyone that had a good gun from S&W or whatever company posted, "My new gun is great, I've got nothing bad to report" it would make for some really boring reading without all the drama and contraversy. If you've bought six Smiths and five were bad, or not to your liking, it is probably time to quit buying Smiths and move on to something else. Like the saying goes, you can't please everyone all the time.
Not trying to offend anyone, just putting my two cents worth here.
I've bought two new Smiths this year, a M25 Classic with nearly 1000 rounds through it and a M629. I shot the new 629 for the first time today with zero problems after about 100 rounds. Both new Smiths look and shoot just fine. No failures to fire, no MIM part failures, no lock problems, and fit and finish are excellent. I've got six other Smiths, some with many thousands of rounds through them. They all worked fine out of the box and were well finished too.
Sure, you'll get a lemon once and a while, and quite often its good to hear about a problem, but people generally like to complain, hence the constant flow of negatively critical posts. What you don't hear much is that the near total majority of guns, Smith's included, look and function just fine with no complaints.
Really, if everyone that had a good gun from S&W or whatever company posted, "My new gun is great, I've got nothing bad to report" it would make for some really boring reading without all the drama and contraversy. If you've bought six Smiths and five were bad, or not to your liking, it is probably time to quit buying Smiths and move on to something else. Like the saying goes, you can't please everyone all the time.
Not trying to offend anyone, just putting my two cents worth here.
luangtom
US Veteran
I fully concur. If all that have NOT experienced bad would report, it would be boring reading. I, personally, have purchased six new Smith & Wessons in the past twelve months. I went from autos to revolvers. I have not experienced a problem with any of the six. Four were J-frames and two were L-frames. The only work done on these was by choice and that was to have Meprolight front-blades installed on the J-frames. And, everyone's two-cents worth is what I joined this forum to read......
Tom M
Member
GLC1 - I've bought 18 new Smiths in the last 30 months, and have done exactly as you suggest, and quit buying them. That was pretty much the gist of my letter to Mr. Golden. Also in the last 30 months, I've bought guns from Colt, Beretta, CZ, and Bersa. No problems.
arc2x4 - Here's the rundown:
22-4 - Push off, shot 9" low, ejector rod would not stay screwed in.
22-4(1917) - deep scratches under the nickel plate. Appeared to have been polished with a rasp. They refinshed the gun.
60-15 - barrel canted to left about 4 degrees. Had to send this one back twice, as they didn't fix it the first time. They ended up replacing the frame.
396NG - Cylinder would not close at all points due to mis-cutting of the ejector star. Also, the star's rough finish gouged the front of the recoil plate, marring the finish. Still don't have this one back.
1911 - Safety would not remain engaged.
Plus little things, like poorly fit grips on my 40-1, that I didn't even bother with.
The 5 main problems all occurred within the last 18 months.
arc2x4 - Here's the rundown:
22-4 - Push off, shot 9" low, ejector rod would not stay screwed in.
22-4(1917) - deep scratches under the nickel plate. Appeared to have been polished with a rasp. They refinshed the gun.
60-15 - barrel canted to left about 4 degrees. Had to send this one back twice, as they didn't fix it the first time. They ended up replacing the frame.
396NG - Cylinder would not close at all points due to mis-cutting of the ejector star. Also, the star's rough finish gouged the front of the recoil plate, marring the finish. Still don't have this one back.
1911 - Safety would not remain engaged.
Plus little things, like poorly fit grips on my 40-1, that I didn't even bother with.
The 5 main problems all occurred within the last 18 months.
Blueduck
Member
A major aspect of the "All mine shoot fine!" versus "My God what happened to S/W!" debates is who is posting, and what thier personal knowledge, expereince, and expectations are.
S/W sends out a revolver to me with a .003" bbl/cylinder gap on one side and .010" on the other and I'm unhappy and posting about it, however 95% of customers don't even own a set of feeler gauges and would never even know the difference. Getting the same gun they might make a post about how great the new S/W's are now.
Pretty much the same deal with people regarding trigger pulls, finish, fitting etc.. If you have no experience with really top notch quality, you have nothing to measure by and as long as it does not blow up, or fall apart, simply say "Mine works fine, don't know what you guys are talking about." and move on.
Years ago when I was annoyed at the S/W Performance Center regarding some work I started addressing my letters to them as the "Smith and Wesson Well It Goes Bang Don't It" Center.
It was than and is now all about meeting customer expectations, as cheaply as possible. It's just that customers expectations are all over the map in this area right now, therfore two opposing sides.
S/W sends out a revolver to me with a .003" bbl/cylinder gap on one side and .010" on the other and I'm unhappy and posting about it, however 95% of customers don't even own a set of feeler gauges and would never even know the difference. Getting the same gun they might make a post about how great the new S/W's are now.
Pretty much the same deal with people regarding trigger pulls, finish, fitting etc.. If you have no experience with really top notch quality, you have nothing to measure by and as long as it does not blow up, or fall apart, simply say "Mine works fine, don't know what you guys are talking about." and move on.
Years ago when I was annoyed at the S/W Performance Center regarding some work I started addressing my letters to them as the "Smith and Wesson Well It Goes Bang Don't It" Center.
It was than and is now all about meeting customer expectations, as cheaply as possible. It's just that customers expectations are all over the map in this area right now, therfore two opposing sides.
Wyatt Earp
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Being the owner of several custom rifles, I can pretty much tell what is right and what is not. I'm still happy with my new S&Ws.
Blueduck
Member
Thats pretty much the point, what exactly were/are you happy with about them?
I had a new 617 as mentioned above with metal shavings (Well legally not sure if it still qualifies as shaving if one end is still dangling from the inside of the sideplate?) interfering with the actiion, and a 14+ pound double action trigger pull.
Not opinion, not a matter of "Things were just better in the old days" just two facts about what I did not like about my new purchase. My older Model 17 had neither of these "features" and I prefer it that way. No way to argue me out of that, no matter how many cool rifles you own
I had a new 617 as mentioned above with metal shavings (Well legally not sure if it still qualifies as shaving if one end is still dangling from the inside of the sideplate?) interfering with the actiion, and a 14+ pound double action trigger pull.
Not opinion, not a matter of "Things were just better in the old days" just two facts about what I did not like about my new purchase. My older Model 17 had neither of these "features" and I prefer it that way. No way to argue me out of that, no matter how many cool rifles you own
OP
Cruiser RN
Member
Ok So what you are saying is that both myself and my gunsmith were hallucinating and that the fileings gumming up the trigger mechanism were a product of our collective imagination/hallucination???This was not the case,they were there and this did take place.My only point is that it should have been caught prior to leaving the factory and corrected.It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know there is something wrong when a double action trigger pull is gritty and "NOT RIGHT" when you are test firing a gun that is BRAND NEW.Furthermore you might figure they would extend a little extra interest to make sure things were right when this gun was replacing a Model 640 that blew up in my hands using factory 38 cal ammo.That gun never had a 357 mag round thru it during its lifetime.Prior to this experience I haven't had a single problem with any of my other S+W's including my CS9,but this lapse in catching a trigger that was this obviously problematic made me question S+W's quality control practices.Ouality is also best measured by a companies response after they are made aware of a problem.A appropriate response is not "What do you expect me to do??".It was this final question that motivated me to start this post.......God Bless....MIke
My god and I the only person looking at what I buy. Regardless of what I want, if the trigger doesn't feel right or the fit is poor I won't but it. How do you not know the trigger doesn't feel right…etc. I recently picked up a model 60-14 that is perfection. If it wasn't I would have left it at the store. If people left poor fitting guns at the store the manufacturers would get the hint. To be honest Smiths are flying off the shelves here in my are of PA. My point is know what you are buying...don't buy crap, if you do it's your fault. You as the customer have the final say on any product, if the QC sucks leave it.
OP
Cruiser RN
Member
You didn't read the initial post.This 640 was sent by the manufacturer to replace my 640 that blew up in my hands.The first time I saw it was when I picked it up from the FFL here in New York.I discovered the problem that day and had it to my gunsmith that evening.This was not a case of go to the gun store examine it and buy it.A NIB Model 640 .357 magnum from S+W shouldn't have these problems.Please go to the initial post and you will see what I mean.God Bless.....Mike
Blueduck
Member
Some of us live in small towns where dealers keep a very limited supply of new Smiths. We pretty much have to order sight unseen for many models.
I suppose this makes general quality control issues more important for those of us without the luxory of looking and feeling over an individual gun prior to purchase.
I suppose this makes general quality control issues more important for those of us without the luxory of looking and feeling over an individual gun prior to purchase.
I did read the initial post and fully understand. My point is you were at the FFl dealer this was the perfect opportunity to send it back to the manufacture and let them know you would not accept the item in the condition it arrived. I too have ordered firearms sight unseen, some were good some were not. The ones that were not didn't go home with me, didn't go to the range, they went straight back to were they came or were traded at the FFL dealer for something else. Shame on the manufacture for making a gun with a bad trigger or any quality issues, but who's at fault for buying it and letting the company think it was OK to let this product go out the door.
Sorry, but that simply isn't an accurate statement either. The revolver lockwork is not some solid mass of metal sandwiched between the frame and side plate... there are plenty of voids between the parts for small filings, chips or shavings to find refuge in and still be able to put the sideplate on without any hassle.
I just bought my first S&W revolver with the internal lock, MIM parts and all, NIB from a dealer... a 432PD.
I've only had it for a few weeks at the most.
As a result of this thread, minutes ago I decided to pop off the side plate and have a look see out of curiosity... if it wasn't so pathetic it would be downright funny.
Sitting on the end of the hammer stud in this pic, is a semi circular metal shaving, exactly as I found it when I took the side plate off:
In the corresponding hole of the alloy side plate is a matching semi circular indentation on the edge of the hammer boss.
The gun seems to be functioning fine, so I'm not going to be throwing any hissy fits with S&W customer service... but it illustrates what people have been talking about.
Wow I stand corrected.
My luck has been very good, with the exception of the lack of an actual trigger job on my PC627, I havent come across, the problems you folks have endured. I did have the famous lock malfunction a couple years ago on a used 629 Mt gun, the flag wouldnt drop when the key was turned to unlock, I fixed it by removing the lock. Of course I have had a big problem with my ruger redhawk, which has a 10 lb single action trigger pull, and wont relaibly pop primers in DA. Sent it back to ruger and was told all is in spec. My smiths all light the primers using the same ammo in DA.
My luck has been very good, with the exception of the lack of an actual trigger job on my PC627, I havent come across, the problems you folks have endured. I did have the famous lock malfunction a couple years ago on a used 629 Mt gun, the flag wouldnt drop when the key was turned to unlock, I fixed it by removing the lock. Of course I have had a big problem with my ruger redhawk, which has a 10 lb single action trigger pull, and wont relaibly pop primers in DA. Sent it back to ruger and was told all is in spec. My smiths all light the primers using the same ammo in DA.
OP
Cruiser RN
Member
Conrad Thank you for illustrating that very point so nicely.This example you have shown would have been considered pristine for what we found when we popped the sideplate off of mine.As per the gentleman who said I was at fault for accepting it I will say that there is a big difference in dry firing a revolver in a gun store with no range facilities and being able to evaluate the same under range conditions.Seeing just what Smith allowed was educational for me cause we corrected the problems and did one sweet trigger job on it.The end result was a tirgger that was infinately better than what Smith did on my last 640 for double the price......God Bless.....Mike
Originally posted by Gunhacker:
Sorry, but that simply isn't an accurate statement either. The revolver lockwork is not some solid mass of metal sandwiched between the frame and side plate... there are plenty of voids between the parts for small filings, chips or shavings to find refuge in and still be able to put the sideplate on without any hassle.
I just bought my first S&W revolver with the internal lock, MIM parts and all, NIB from a dealer... a 432PD.
I've only had it for a few weeks at the most.
As a result of this thread, minutes ago I decided to pop off the side plate and have a look see out of curiosity... if it wasn't so pathetic it would be downright funny.
Sitting on the end of the hammer stud in this pic, is a semi circular metal shaving, exactly as I found it when I took the side plate off:
In the corresponding hole of the alloy side plate is a matching semi circular indentation on the edge of the hammer boss.
The gun seems to be functioning fine, so I'm not going to be throwing any hissy fits with S&W customer service... but it illustrates what people have been talking about.
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