What have I got here?

[fat tom]

Hopefully these crappy cellphone pics will show enough detail for someone to recognize it and tell me just what it is. It's chambered in .38 S&W and the serial number is 21211. TIA.











f.t.

 

[P&R Fan]

It's a .38 Military and Police 2nd Model, made in 1902.
Looks like a pretty nice one.
Jim

 

[cgt4570]

It's a .38 Military and Police 2nd Model, made in 1902.
Looks like a pretty nice one.
Jim

Um, no. It's an I frame Terrier in .38 S&W.

 

[Masterpiece]

It's an I frame Terrier in .38 S&W.

It's a .38 Military and Police 2nd Model, made in 1902.

Tom,

No offense to Chris & Jim's observations, but I believe what you may have there is a fairly Early Pre-War .38 Regulation Police!!

And should it prove to have a Matching Serial No. everywhere...(Barrel,Cyl.,Stocks,Etc.)...with No Rework Marks...It also has a somewhat Scarce 2" Barrel for one of these!!

As an aside...On the outside chance I've incorrectly identified it given these are a bit out of my realm of expertise ...I'm sure My Ole' Buddy Jim (Hondo44) will be along to correct me & clue you in as to what it really is...Ha!!~Ha!!

 

[fat tom]

these are a bit out of my realm of expertise

I can certainly say the same. Thanks to all of you. Perhaps the mystery shall be solved soon.
f.t.

 

[DCWilson]

The gun is configured like a Post Office Regulation Police (short barrel, square butt -- essentially a square-butt Terrier), but the few of those that are known are all in the 47xxx serial number range as I recall. The stocks are from the 1930s. The frame is from before 1922. The barrel is probably a replacement. I very much doubt it could be original because (as far as I know) the company was not putting out any two-inch I-frames in the 1920s.

Does the barrel number to the frame? If so, I might suspect a an old four-inch RP was returned to the factory in the late '30s for a rebuild on the P.O. pattern.

Neat gun.

 

[fat tom]

Mornin' David. Yes,all matching (bbl flat,cylinder and frame). Can't make out any numbers on the grips,which look as if they have never been removed. The fit to frame is perfect. It is a ROUND butt. An additional note,the forward sideplate screw below the cylinder does not fit flush like the others. Replacement?
f.t.

 

[weatherby]

It is a ROUND butt.

Just to be 100 % clear Bobby the grip frame isn't rebated like this ?

 

[fat tom]

It is a ROUND butt.

Just to be 100 % clear Bobby the grip frame isn't rebated like this ?

Looks exactly like that Paul. Is this not considered to be a round butt?
f.t.

 

[murphydog]

A mystery gun! Do you see a date code at the lower left side of the grip frame, either one or two digits and a dot followed by two more digits? This might indicate when the gun was returned to the factory for modifications. The matching numbered parts strongly suggest it was.

 

[Green Frog]

fat tom, as DCW said, it almost certainly started life as a Regulation Police, but at some time in its past was converted by adding the shorter barrel (and extracting rod) to bring it to the RP Post Office configuration. If the barrel's serial number matches the rest of the gun, I would assume a factory conversion and would look for the date code stamped on the left side of the grip frame near the toe. By the way, this would be a very neat EDC/CCW, and with the square RP grip you would have more to hold onto than with the standard Terrier. Nice find!

Froggie

 

[DCWilson]

The grip frame is round, but the stocks determine whether it is considered square or round butt. The Regulation Police design involved frame modifications and stock design that let rounded frames carry larger square butt stocks. The rebated (or stepped) backstrap is the identifying characteristic of any Regulation Police revolver, either .32 or .38 caliber. (I am ignoring a very few round-butt RPs that over the decades were built on special order or perhaps to use up prewar parts in the postwar era.)

Alan and Froggie just raised the rework date question I was about to. Also, does the barrel have the normal cartridge and company rollmarks? Are there any loose symbols on the flat underside of the barrel, like an S or a diamond?

I see that the sideplate screw does stand proud, but I wonder if that is the result of debris down in the pocket, cross-threading, or perhaps the inadvertent swapping of two screws. See if the one immediately behind the trigger guard works better up front.

 

[fat tom]

In the extreme lower left it is stamped "E4". Slightly above and to the right of this,there is a "G" next to the grip pin. To the right of the grip pin and on a line even with the "E4" is another "4". On the right side of the grip frame are two more letters,a "B" above and to the right of the grip pin,and slightly lower to the right of that is the letter "I". May I assume (yeah,I know) that the latter two designate I-frame,blue?
f.t.

added: No additional markings on the bbl flat,normal company roll stamping on the left side of the bbl,nothing on the right side. I tried exchanging the screws. Both appear identical and swapping them around resulted in no change.

 

[47knuckle]

Bobby, if you can find it, there was an interesting discussion on the forum about these regulation police/terriers. As I recall some members thought the correct title was determined by the frame (so yours would be a regulation police with 2" barrel). I believe Roy said the title was determined by the barrel, so yours would be a terrier with a square butt. I think I got to start following you around- where are you finding all this neat stuff?

 

[DCWilson]

I think I would letter that one on the off chance it is factory original as is. If it turns out to be original, that pretty much requires that it was assembled in the late '30s using an old numbered frame that someone found in storage.

Prewar Terriers are rarely seen, and the Post Office RPs are even scarcer than the Terriers. If that's original, it would be quite valuable. But just to put a bitter coating on the sugar pill, I still think it likelier that it is a rebarreled four-inch gun with replacement stocks.

 

[H Richard]

F T, and all, I think that one started out as one like this.


38 reg. Police, and s/n within 6600 of yours (dates to Dec. 1925). My thoughts are that it went back to the factory for a new barrel at some point, (but there are no date marks on the frame). I would definitely letter this one, and then do a Historical research, I think this era has been digitized now. You will never know what you may find. Neat gun.

 

[Masterpiece]

I think I would letter that one on the off chance it is factory original as you see it. If it turns out to be original, that pretty much requires that it was assembled in the late '30s using an old numbered frame that someone found in storage.

David,

Those were my original thoughts as well!! Although as I stated earlier...These are a bit out of my realm of expertise so I thought it best to bring it to the OP's attention that I believed it to be a Regulation Police hoping either Yourself or Jim (Hondo44) would eventually step in to clue him in on all the possibilities...Modified or Otherwise!!

Looks like you & the others beat Jim to the punch...Thanks To All!!

 

[fat tom]

David,
Looks like you & the others beat Jim to the punch...Thanks To All!!

And my thanks as well!
f.t.

 

[Hondo44]

fat tom,

Well you certainly have come up with one of those extraordinary S&W anomalies that make S&W collecting so fascinating!

Sorry to be late to the party, but I think all of the possibilities have been mentioned already and I don't have any new or different theories. But I can offer my analysis and conclusion based on the following observations, and in agreement with David Wilson, Masterpiece and a few others, I'd bet a paycheck that you have a factory original Regulation Police with a 2" Terrier length barrel.

1. the matching barrel serial indicates to me it was factory assembled.

2. and the lack of a rework date on the grip frame and any other rework stamps like S, diamond, etc., in a period (the 1930s) when these stampings were as consistent as any other period, indicate the anomalies occurred during the guns initial assembly.

3. the 1936 era 2" barrel and 1930 era stocks, with flat silver medallions and what appears to be a gap at the front toe of the grip frame (because your earlier grip frame toe was machined round) indicate assembly took place sometime in the late 1930s.
Factory change order dated May 8, 1920; rebated Reg. Police grip frame toe left sq for easier stock fitting:

4. the 'out-of-normal-s/n-range' frame assembled ~16 years later has enough documented precedent, IMO, to be a realistic possibility.

5. in the pre war period a customer special order or employee owned RP in the configuration we see, would not be that uncommon.

6. likely not one of the 500 Post Ofc Dept. guns w/o the special marking or special flat steel plate on the butt for added weight, but perhaps an 'over-run' gun from that model, that are so often associated with a special production run model to insure the total order quantity will be met.

7. I too, am in agreement as others have posted, that a factory letter request is imperative for this gun as well as a subsequent SWHF request for additional factory documents.

In conclusion and barring further information to the contrary, I believe you have a righteous factory anomolie!

I hope this is helpful Tom,

 

[fat tom]

Thanks Jim and all. Much appreciated!
f.t.