What is it? Front Sight ID

[DARE]

Have this gold bead front sight on a K-22 Masterpiece that shipped in 1949.
The letter makes no mention of a gold bead front sight.
Who made this sight? Sheard and Marble had gold bead sights, but think they were always marked Sheard or Marble.
A couple of folks suggested that maybe this was the patridge sight that had been modified.

 

[Gun Relics]

I'm pretty sure it's the factory sight. I have one from 1952 with a very similar sight.

Some pics of mine. Mine is all matching including the grips, so I doubt it was modified.

 

[rct269]

I'm one of the folks who suggested it was a modified Patridge--and I haven't changed my mind.

As an aside, Sheard made sights in the later 19th century/early 20th. Marble bought some, or all(??) of Sheard's patents---Marble's rendition of those designs first appeared in their catalog in 1905. After that, Marble's production of Sheard designs were marked (variably) Marble on one side, and Sheard on the other----or Marble on one side, and Sheard's Pat. on the other---and later on, with Marble but no Sheard markings at all.

As yet another aside, NONE of either Marble or Sheard sights bore ANY resemblance whatsoever to this sight. The illustrated sights in early S&W catalogs/literature show six available front sights (Paine/Patridge/Call (a Patridge with a flat bead on the face)/McGivern (a Patridge with a hemispherical bead on the face), and both Sheard and Marble sights (which by this time were essentially identical---and both made by Marble). There is a "Low Sheard" shown in some S&W literature on the Oudoorsman. It's essentially a flat blade with a bead on top. How it ever got into S&W's literature is a mystery, because it's a rifle sight---complete with dovetail.

It's of no moment one way or the other that Neal's 1977 article (The Evolution of Smith&Wesson Target Sights) shows nothing that resembles this sight because the article was researched by observation (since the factory kept virtually no records of sights (with the exception of three that were patented---only one of which was ever used). "Researched by observation" translates to: If Neal nor any of his many helpers didn't see a sight on a gun in sufficient numbers to be deemed credible, it wasn't treated in the article. Neal notes there are some front sights thus omitted from the article. I note there was a rear also omitted---because I stumbled upon it 20 some odd years ago---ended up stumbling upon it on three different M&P targets. Jinks, on the other hand, had been tracking that sight for a looooooooooong time, having established a serial number spread for its use on both 32-20's and .38 Special M&P's---AND developing a deadly accurate explanation for the fact it was a total rolling DISASTER!! Talk about showing off!!

All that said, I admit to being a sight junkie, but I make no claim to being the know-all-end-all when it comes to sights on S&W's---only to have never seen a sight like this before----but can see how it could've been made from a plain old Patridge. I can't say why it was made that way--other than it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[DARE]

Gun Relics, your ramp looks just like mine. To me your post is much more squared off, while mine is rounded.

Ralph, I was thinking that my sight if not modified, was made by someone besides S&W. In that case it would not be in Neal's article.

 

[rct269]

Gun Relics, your ramp looks just like mine. To me your post is much more squared off, while mine is rounded.

Ralph, I was thinking that my sight if not modified, was made by someone besides S&W. In that case it would not be in Neal's article.

Actually it would be in Neal's article, just as Paine, Lyman, Marble, and Sheard are in the article. S&W used sights of their design, and several others on order. My last M&P Target arrived (and lettered) with a Marble Ivory Bead.

Bottom Line: They aimed to please!

Ralph Tremaine

My biggest problem/clue is the age of your gun----mid 20th century.

S&W used what I'll call vendor's sights rather freely up to WWII----not so much after---if any. Now I say "if any" out of ignorance because of my collection---targets from the beginning (NM#3's to the end of the "5 screws"). My dim recollection is the 357's could be had with pretty much any sight from the beginning right on. My recollection is dim because while the 357's of the time were certainly target grade guns, no one in their right mind would've selected one to use in competition. Accordingly, I had none of them and no significant knowledge of them (except for an RM simply because of their very important place/role in the history of the company). Specifically, I contend S&W would've been long gone by the end of the depression if not for the 357 Magnum---and its favorable effect on the rest of the product line.

AND, as an aside, I also contend the success of the RM program can likely be attributed more to the cartridge than to the gun. It's the ultimate of the time as the "Mine's bigger than yours" syndrome which likely started with our Cave Man ancestors and their clubs.

Speaking of "Mine's bigger than yours", my very first RM was an 8 3/4" monster ordered by the President of some public utility in Duluth, Minnesota----had it sighted in at 100 yards with Magnum ammo. Now that's all well and good, aside from the fact the gun gave every appearance of being brand new----and never fired since it left the factory-----the ultimate "sock drawer" gun!

 

[Gun Relics]

Gun Relics, your ramp looks just like mine. To me your post is much more squared off, while mine is rounded.

Ralph, I was thinking that my sight if not modified, was made by someone besides S&W. In that case it would not be in Neal's article.

Think it could be the same sight, just filed down? Looks like there are file marks all over it.

 

[4K2022]

I’m not a sight junky so I go basic’s first.
It’s my understanding both the front and rear sight blades are serial numbered? At the cost of removal.
The rear blade is easiest to remove. But without removing the rear blade my question is, Does the rear blade have a U notch or a square corner notch? Or a square with signs of ,, alterations.

 

[RKmesa]

David:

I'm in the "standard Factory Sight modified by someone to meet their specific desires" camp. I like the gun and the sight is a unique feature that was customized (and well-used) by a previous owner.

 

[Retired W4]

Not seen, by me any way, on a K22. #2 is a single shot, 4th model I think. Different base on these (no ramp).

 

[DARE]

U shaped notch on the rear sight. Agree my front sight was modified and the rear blade was replaced. Think I was just hoping for something else.

 

[rct269]

I’m not a sight junky so I go basic’s first.
It’s my understanding both the front and rear sight blades are serial numbered? At the cost of removal.
The rear blade is easiest to remove. But without removing the rear blade my question is, Does the rear blade have a U notch or a square corner notch? Or a square with signs of ,, alterations.

Your understanding that both front and rear sights are numbered to the gun is correct-----right up until it isn't. Any/all parts fit to the frame, and any/all parts fit to a part fit to the frame are numbered. Front sights are fit to the barrel which is fit to the frame, so it's numbered. Rear sights are fit to the frame, so they're numbered too---right up until they're not. All this is so----right up until it isn't. That point in time is pre-war. The right up until it isn't point in time is post-war. A less verbose rendition goes like so: The pre-war stuff is fit, the post-war stuff isn't.

Now, about that "At the cost of removal." comment: Both pre and post war rear sights are attached with a single screw-----not hardly any cost of removal. Pre-war fronts are attached with a pin. Again, not hardly any cost of removal ----tap-tap-tap, its out. The pain in the butt with pins is getting them back in---and that's why pin holders are made----so not hardly any cost again.

And while it should go without saying, all this is applicable to target grade guns---fixed sight guns are different. I dare say fixed sight guns don't even have sights----none worth talking about anyway.

Ralph Tremaine

As an aside, the sneaky way of dealing with front sight pins is to not remove them---just move them enough to get the sight blade out---leaving them in the off side of the sight boss-----tap-tap-tap, blade's free. Tap-tap-tap, blade's secure. Done and done!!

 

[4K2022]

U shaped notch on the rear sight. Agree my front sight was modified and the rear blade was replaced. Think I was just hoping for something else.

Have you removed the front sight? What was you maybe thinking about?

 

[DARE]

Have not tried to remove the front sight. The pin that holds the sight looks unmolested. It would not look so if I attempted removal. Was hoping the sights were factory. Then was hoping they had been replaced. Think the front sight was modified and the rear blade replaced.

 

[4K2022]

Have not tried to remove the front sight. The pin that holds the sight looks unmolested. It would not look so if I attempted removal. Was hoping the sights were factory. Then was hoping they had been replaced. Think the front sight was modified and the rear blade replaced.

The cost of removal (Ralph)
I don’t see remnants of a brass bead in any of the photos but maybe I’m missing something.
The cost of tappy tap tap on one pin, might be outweighed by visually confirming the number, (this time)!
The rear sight blade, may have been replaced but IMO it was a long time ago. holster wear can be seen on a gun and if the gun was carried long enough it is possible to figure out which side of the body it was on. Looking at your rear sight picture I see the Right top corner “rounded over a bit, that takes time.

 

[DARE]

OK, let's remove the front sight and see if there is a serial number that matches the gun. With the overall condition of the gun don't think it matters if the pin looks like it has been removed.
How do I do it? I guess with a punch I don't have. Probably something I can get from Brownells.
Any tips appreciated.

 

[paplinker]

OK, let's remove the front sight and see if there is a serial number that matches the gun. With the overall condition of the gun don't think it matters if the pin looks like it has been removed.
How do I do it? I guess with a punch I don't have. Probably something I can get from Brownells.
Any tips appreciated.

Would you consider taking pictures of your progress when you are ready to do this?
I also would enjoy learning how to do this and with what tools.

I do believe I read on here about there being a certain direction to push the pin and to make sure the pin goes back in the exact same end and direction.

 

[Muley Gil]

Would you consider taking pictures of your progress when you are ready to do this?
I also would enjoy learning how to do this and with what tools.

I do believe I read on here about there being a certain direction to push the pin and to make sure the pin goes back in the exact same end and direction.

Generally, you install from right to left and remove a pin from left to right. That is looking at the firearm from of the rear, looking at the sights.

 

[rct269]

For openers, I'm thinking the pin can be removed from either right or left. Continuing, do yourself a favor, and don't remove it---just move it until the sight can be removed---makes for very simple re-installation.

Next, I'll be surprised if the sight blade is numbered simply because I opine it isn't " fit" as were pre-war sights----really don't know one way or the other----but'll bet money on it.

If you should screw the pooch, and remove the pin, do yourself a favor, and get a pin holder before you try to put it (or them?) back in it's hole.

Ralph Tremaine

And as an aside, IF the blade is numbered all you've learned is the blade is either a made to order (or experimental) item by S&W OR an aftermarket modified Patridge----and IF it's a made to order, a charge was made which at least should end up being confirmed in a letter---especially if you ask.

And yes, you can get the punch from Brownells. I don't recall seeing proud pins on a K-22 (Combat Masterpiece-yes), but if it/they are proud, they'll have rounded ends, and will require a cup tip punch.

 

[4K2022]

OK, let's remove the front sight and see if there is a serial number that matches the gun. With the overall condition of the gun don't think it matters if the pin looks like it has been removed.
How do I do it? I guess with a punch I don't have. Probably something I can get from Brownells.
Any tips appreciated.

I never caught the serial number of this gun, only that it shipped in 1949. It’s an early one

Tip s
The rear sight removal is simple,, and if IT is marked that Might increase the “chance the front sight would be as well and maybe that would satisfy your curiosity.
But Ralph’s got money to bet,, I not sure I’d bet against him,, but I’m thinking an early one (? -100,000 ?) just might be.

Start a thread in the gun Smithing section.
I believe the Original pins are straight.
I also believe that tapered pins are/were a Go To fix when tinkering with front sights.

Tapered pins have a smaller diameter end on one side of the sight and a bit Larger diameter on the other. This type is Pounded out, of its taper. No matter the direction installed by “someone

 

[DARE]

Serial number of the gun is K51403. If I understand Ralph correctly, the sights will not have numbers because it is a post-war gun. As I look at the sight pin carefully, I think it is a tapered pin. It looks larger on the left side to me. Does it look that way in the pictures? It is definitely more proud on the left side. On the right side, I can run a fingernail across it and feel a little protrusion. Did the factory use tapered pins?
Don't have a proper screwdriver to remove the rear sight. My Brownells bits don't fit the slot. Have a cheap set of jeweler's screwdrivers and one that fits. Don't think I can turn the screw with that. Probably the screw has not been turned in 75 years.