What is the REAL test for revolver timing?

[stantheman86]

I was at my local dealer, I'm broke and couldn't buy anything but did look at a Model 17 with an 8 3/8" barrel. I asked to see it, did my usual "timing and carryup" test.....very slowly cocked the hammer, 4 of the 6 chambers did not lock up on my "paint dry speed" cocking test. In slow DA, catching the hammer so as not to dry fire it, it locked up fine on all 6. On "medium" speed SA cocking, I found 2 of the 6 still did not carry up.

The dealer, an older guy who has been selling guns for probably 40 years, was like "So what's the verdict?" And I was like "It's a nice piece, but it has some carry up issues" and he's like "Oh wow, let me check it out" and he holds the gun and thumb cocks the hammer with some pretty good force, lets the hammer down slow with his thumb, repeats this for all the chambers and he's like "Looks good to me!" I didn't buy it, and I have bought PLENTY of guns from this dealer over the years, so he's not trying to snow me on anything. He said he has the part time gunsmith look over all the used guns he takes on trades, and test fired many of them, including that Model 17. He said "I fired this one last weekend, worked like it should, very accurate gun, didn't seem like it had any timing issues"

Am I just too OCD with the whole timing and carryup thing? To me, if it doesn't carry up in slow SA, it's out of time.Granted I have quite a few S&W's with a "sluggish" chamber or two, but all of them shoot fine in DA and SA when cocking the hammer at realistic speeds. But to most people, if it cocks and locks at "combat speed" it's good to go.

What's everyone else's opinions?

 

[Bullzaye]

A good question...I'm curious to hear how the more knowledgeable folks will answer this.

IMO, you checked it correctly. I do the same thing. However, if it doesn't quite lock up while cocking the hammer very slowly, it doesn't mean I won't buy it. It only indicates that an issue is developing, and will need to be dealt with at some time in the future. I suppose if they were asking top dollar, I might use this as a negotiating point. I usually start with the very deliberate and slow cylinder rotation, and if I can't find any problem there, fine. But if it is as you described, then I'll use more "reasonable" movements, to determine the degree of the problem. If it seems fine under normal movements, then I'm okay with that, though as I said, I may use it for bargaining. Also, I might view it differently if we're talking about a Colt revolver (not that I ever really shop for one) instead of a S&W.

Tim

 

[stantheman86]

I asked a similiar question a while back, and was told that a guy who was friends with another guy who worked at S&W "back in the day" showed him how to check for timing, and he just cranked the hammer back 6 times, dry fired it in DA 6 times, and if it was locked when the hammer fell, he called it good.

It also seems a lot of revolvers left the factory passing the above "test" but even before a round went through them, in the slow SA test there was some carryup issues. Maybe it depends on who is fitting the ratchet, and what "standards" they adhere to.

I am also anxiously awaiting more knowledgeable people to weigh in on this!

I also have an issue with my 617 that I posted about in another thread in the "1980-present" forum.......it passes the "at speed" cocking test but has some sluggish chambers in slow SA.

 

[tdan]

<I was at my local dealer, I'm broke and couldn't buy anything but did look at a Model 17 with an 8 3/8" barrel. I asked to see it, did my usual "timing and carryup" test.....very slowly cocked the hammer, 4 of the 6 chambers did not lock up on my "paint dry speed" cocking test. In slow DA, catching the hammer so as not to dry fire it, it locked up fine on all 6. On "medium" speed SA cocking, I found 2 of the 6 still did not carry up.>

I usually find that the slow pull DA is the best timing test. I'm listening for that cylinder stop to click up in the same spot on every chamber, just before the hammer releases. That said, you may have a gun that may fail this test, simply because the sear releases before the hand has completely carried the cylinder up. This could be a problem with the sear fitting, not the hand or ratchets. I'm kind of baffled by your observation that the gun in question carried up fine in slow DA, but 2 chambers would not carry up in single action. Thumb cocking the hammer allows the hand to carry up the cylinder higher than with a DA trigger pull.

 

[H Richard]

I'd just about bet that a little cleaning and lube and it will be just fine. Unless it shows lots of wear in other area's I doubt if it has timing issues that amount to anything.

 

[stantheman86]

I find most if not all of my DA revolvers carry up better in DA than SA. I don't know the exact reason. I have a Model 10 that would carry up late on 5 out of 6 chambers even in fast SA, but times perfectly in very slow DA. I dropped in a DAO hammer and solved the problem....

Even though it was an older Model 17, I think maybe putting some spent .22's in the chambers might fix the carry up.

I found it's not always the new pin-less ratchet S&W's that need rounds in the chambers to align the ratchet. I have a few older S&W's that carry up better with brass in the chambers.

I am just more curious than anything, what everyone else's "standard" is for timing. I'm sure many people have been carrying and shooting S&W's for decades that would fail my "test" but pass my dealer's test with flying colors.......I'm just not comfortable with trusting momentum to spin the cylinder into lockup.

I'm also a huge fan of Ruger DA revolvers, which carry up much earlier than S&W's, so I may have a skewed perspective on proper timing. I like how Rugers lock up well before the hammer is fully back.

 

[Snapping Twig]

Finger off the trigger, slowly pull back the hammer. The cylinder should lock up before the hammer cocks completely.

I've also used the trigger to slowly turn the cylinder to insure it locks up before the hammer drops, but the above test is easier to do.

 

[foggood11]

Here's a youtube video I ran across some time ago. Gives me the heebie jeebies to see this guy look down a barrel, but I place a small mirror in front of the barrel, shine a flashlight behind the cylinder, and observe the reflection in the mirror itself. Seems to be effective, and that way, at least I'm not pointing the gun at myself!

YouTube - How to check the condition of a used revolver

 

[Thuer]

If you cock the hammer with fource the weight of the cilinder aks like a flyingwheel. Ofcource it will be on time all the time. But, if you cock the hammer slowly then hase the mechanick do the work. So slow cocking the hammer is the trick. Try for example an old Colt. I bet they are almost off time. With speed they all work. Slow hmmm.

 

[Old 44 Guy]

Was in our local gunshop last Saturday. Guy came in with a Mod.64, used cop gun. Was so far out of time I couldn't believe it. Even cocking it fast still had a ways for bolt to lock up. About 4 out of 6 times. End play problems also. Guess he still has it as nobody bought it.

 

[scooter123]

During carry up the hand initially pushes on the pawl on the extractor, then at the point near release of the hammer in double action it then "sweeps" past that pawl. Because of this, the relationship between the window in the frame and the hand can have a distinct effect on carrying the cylinder into engagement with the cylinder stop. So can the positioning of the trigger on it's stud, which is why it's nearly 100& certain that you'll see carry up issues with a left handed slow motion trigger pull on a S&W. It's also why fitting a slightly thicker hand is the standard fix for timing that falls just a tick short.

However, by design the S&W lockwork is designed for Combat and not precision Target shooting. One issue with a hand that is "pefectly" fitted is that it can cause a Hand/Cylinder Stop bind if the notches in the cylinder are fouled, the hand window in the frame is fouled, of if there is a stray bit of powder debris in just the wrong spot. That is something you do NOT want to happen in a gun that you are defending yourself with. Because of this concern the S&W revolver is designed and manufactured to be just a bit "loose" and it's common for them to not carry into full lock when cocked very very slowly. Finally, the extractor has a bit of "slop" in its fit into the cylinder and any carry up test should be done with fired casings in the cylinder, in nearly every case I've seen just inserting some fired casings will "cure" a carry up issue. In fact, if you read the manual for the current S&W revolvers carefully you'll find that they advise against "staging" the trigger in double action shooting, for what I believe is this very reason.

Yeah, I know a lot of shooters will stage a DA trigger to improve accuracy, however IMO it's a bad habit and not how you would actually use a DA trigger in actual Combat. IMO it's much wiser to put in the hours of practice required in order to shoot well without staging the trigger, that way if you need to use one for Defense it will shoot where you expect it to. In addition, in some of the current gun games, Time matters and not staging the trigger will save lots and lots of time.

To sum it up, what you've observed is normal for a S&W revolver and I don't think it's an actual defect. I can also assure that if you were in the trenches in WWI and needed your gun to work after being dropped in the mud, you wouldn't consider a bit of looseness a defect as long as the gun worked. By design it's meant to be used with a brisk trigger pull or hammer cock, not the slow motion methods so many advise.

Now, as noted fitting a hand just a few thousanths of an inch thicker can probably cure this. However, if it's not properly fitted to the cylinder it can cause a bind in the action. In addition it may, and I stress may, make the gun more sensitive to fouling issues, so cleaning may become more critical. Personally, I wouldn't have passed up on a gun for this at a good price, when used the way it's meant to be used it'll carry up perfectly.

 

[Thuer]

You have a point. When you use the revolver in sport or combat, nobody cocks the revolver slowly. Even the Colt out of time the last pull of the trigger pushes the cilinder in place.

 

[stantheman86]

Great info, thank you!

I had never thought of the need for a little "slop" in the action, for a service revolver.

I do love my S&W's, but much prefer the early lockup of the Ruger design. I don't know how they do it, a Ruger can be filthy and it will still work, must be the big, chunky internals. I bought a used GP100 that had everything from pocket lint, rust, dried grease and whatever else dried into the action.....I didn't even notice it until after it's first range trip, when I broke it down and saw junk in there that looked like it was from the late 80's.

 

[Rule3]

Revolver checkout Procedure

Revolver Checkout Procedure

 

[scooter123]

Just a couple more notes concerning carry up.

One is that the bullet striking the forcing cone will cause the cylinder to center itself with the bore as long as the chamber is within the "confines" of the forcing cone. While the accuracy may be degraded slightly, and leading at the forcing cone increase, it probably won't have much effect on the function of the gun in a Combat role. I have a sneaking hunch that of the original 1917 and Victory revolvers were giving a very thorough check of the stop notches and cylinder stop dimensions that it would be revealed that these War Service guns were built a bit "looser" in this area in the interest of reliability in extreme settings. One byproduct of looser dimensions in these areas is that carryup would be much easier to achieve. It's possible that Ruger uses an increase in the clearance in this area for the same reason, however never having looked closely at a Ruger it's only a possibility.

Another is an observation that is based on a sampling of only 4 revolvers, so it's not in the least bit statistically revelent. However, both of my recently purchased, Lock equipped and MIM using revolvers will pass the "slow motion" test with flying colors as long as the cylinder isn't "dragged" during carryup. On my 610-3 dragging the cylinder will cause it to fail on 2 positions, on my 620 it will carry up perfectly on all 7 unless the drag is extreme and the cylinder is empty. On the other hand my 1988 vintage 67-1 and 1992 vintage 617 will fail occasionally on the slow motion test with an empty cylinder. Note, both of these older guns feature forged internals. I suspect that the use of MIM internals may result in a slight increase in reliability concerning carryup compared to forged due to the decrease in size varations. The simple truth is that the MIM process likely results in a tighter "fit" than the older forged parts allowed.

I've found that there is a rather significant amount of play in the rotation of the extractor star relative to the cylinder in every one of my revolvers. Because of this, I consider the use of fired casings to be an absolute MUST for any carryup test. In an ideal world this should really be done using freshly sized unprimed casings but some of us don't have access to these casings. The simple fact is that play between the extractor and cylinder is reduced when casings are used and in the case of every one of my revolvers that is all that is needed to see the gun carryup perfectly.

Finally, I'm not saying that carryup is not an issue to be concerned about, simply that in many cases some of us may be a bit too critical concerning carryup. That is especially true if you haven't been using fired, or sized and unprimed, casings for this test. Carryup that falls a thou or two short with an unloaded cylinder really isn't something I would be concerned about, in every case I've seen just inserting some empty casings will solve it.

 

[roar]

Damn, I just got my 442 back from the factory for some endshake issues, and they replaced a whole bunch of stuff, including the extractor and so on. Now if I pull the trigger super slow, the cylinder lock fails to engage on a few chambers, yet it works fine when I pull the trigger at normal DA speed. I don't know what to think. Should I send it back?

 

[scooter123]

Damn, I just got my 442 back from the factory for some endshake issues, and they replaced a whole bunch of stuff, including the extractor and so on. Now if I pull the trigger super slow, the cylinder lock fails to engage on a few chambers, yet it works fine when I pull the trigger at normal DA speed. I don't know what to think. Should I send it back?

If it works well at a normal trigger speed I don't see any reason to be concerned. I'll also point out that the 442 is considered a "pocket pistol" by many and that additional slack in the action may mean that it will function perfectly even when it's accumulated some lint.

 

[markush]

Damn, I just got my 442 back from the factory for some endshake issues, and they replaced a whole bunch of stuff, including the extractor and so on. Now if I pull the trigger super slow, the cylinder lock fails to engage on a few chambers, yet it works fine when I pull the trigger at normal DA speed. I don't know what to think. Should I send it back?

My thinking is, if it's "loose" now it sure isn't going to get "tighter" with use. If I was positive that it wasn't like this when I sent it in you can bet I would say something if it came back like this after being "fixed", for unrelated issues or not.

 

[akviper]

I was taught at the S&W factory revolver school that you slowly thumb cock the empty revolver. With the hammer back in the cocked position you give the cylinder an nudge and if you hear the cylinder stop click into position the revolver suffers from DCU or doesn't carry up. It's been a few years but a revolver with DCU on any cylinder notch was considered defective and repair was in order. The revolver was not designed to require speedy manipulation to lock up correctly. DCU usually gets worse over time and is fairly easy to repair.

I usually pass on a revolver with DCU unless priced low enough to repair after purchase.

 

[Rock185]

The old S&W factory "51 PROBLEMS" manual confirms what akviper said. I know that a lot of people don't care that a S&W revolver DCUs as long as inertia carries the cylinder into position, but per the factory, it is a defect. I pass on DCU S&W revolvers unless I think I can easily fix the problem. During the '70s and 80s I purchased several new S&Ws that DCU. IMHO S&W has gotten a lot better at this in recent years. I have S&W revolvers manufactuerd between 1972 and 2009. All of my S&W revolvers carry up properly. I had occassion to have two of my revolvers worked on at the factory a couple years ago. Both time up as akviper and the "51 PROBLEMS" manual say they should. ymmv