What is your take on George Armstrong Custer?

[semperfi71]

Thanks feralmerril,

I was fascinated by the Battle of the Bighorn/Greasy Grass and Custer for a long time. I was not exactly a fan or the man. But I found it hard to believe that an officer with an ego, who's first desire is to be successful in combat, would sacrifice his command in a "reported" but never proven desire to be president or just simply to become famous.

It made no sense to me that any officer would knowingly assault what modern day thinkers believe to be superior numbers. Some accounts [questionable] state the Indians had as much as 3,000 warriors. Most seem to settle on 2,000 to 1,500. Custer had 600 men. By certain standards of more modern warfare that was bad odds. But the Western Indian Wars were not "normal" warfare. Hence, to me, why the attack on such larger numbers? There had to be a reason. Reading other accounts of battles and skirmishes of the time period led me to the answer.

As noted above, Major Forsyth deliberately entered into the plains of Eastern Colorado with only 50 men. And he, and the rest of the Army had a good idea of the larger numbers of Cheyenne they might find. He was deliberately allowed to proceed. It was because they had superior firepower if they could entice the Indians to fight in the open. And they were successful at that although the fight did not occur as planned.

Colonel Mackenzie lad a smaller force of cavalry into the Palo Duro canyon, single file, down a narrow trail, knowing that if discovered the superior numbers of Comanche could catch them on the trail and raise hob. As his first men hit the base of the trail the Comanche attacked, but these men held them off until the remaining troops could gather at the base and then they counter-attacked. Again, the warriors fought a skirmishing retreat against lesser numbers, the soldiers prevailed and captured a certain number of non-combatants that was significant enough to cause the warriors to come into the reservation. And, Mackanzie destroyed the captured horse herd sealing the Comanche fate, reportedly as much as 5,000 horses.

Little Bighorn/Greasy Grass was the end of the mixed emotions back east about what to do about the "Indian Problem". The U.S. Army was beefed up and better trained and then turned loose all over the west to corral all of the Indians onto reservations. This was the era of General Nelson Miles, a no-nonsense, dedicated, and sharply focused man [some label unfeeling and hard-nosed]. He used large numbers of troops in well coordinated "pincer" movements to attack the Sioux, Cheyenne, Arapaho, and Nez Perce. Then he relieved General Crook and went after the Apache.

Interestingly history is often not so much as original reporting but repeating "facts" culled from someone else's work. Admittedly we all have to do that now because there are no living survivors. However quite often "history" becomes a series of repeated bad information or even outright fabrications.

A good example is the Tet Offensive in Vietnam. It was a huge tactical error for the Communists. When it was over a lot [some say the majority] of the Viet Cong were dead. Some say an intentional plan by Ho Chi Minh to eliminate the VC. And definitely a lot of NVA units were destroyed as well. It is usually a mistake in guerilla warfare for the insurgents to come out in the open and try to fight "man-on-man" against the superior forces and firepower of a wealthier assailant. Tet was a failure for the intended purpose.

It was a success in that it swayed a lot of weak-minded Americans to come out for a quick end to the war, which we where winning after Tet.

However many "historians" and the vaunted "History Channel" still report Tet as a success by the Communists. Again their original purpose failed. The secondary effect, breaking the spine of Americans at home was successful, although I don't think that was the intended outcome by the Communists.

So too, I began to think Custer has been unfairly maligned. I read a lot of Western history and by looking at the large expanse of "Indian Warfare" I think my beliefs on Bighorn/Greasy Grass can be proven.

Sadly, my readings have taken me into a lot of study of the American Indian cultures of the time period. It has always been a thought of mine as to what would have happened if they had evolved without the interference of the European cultures. I get the feeling that they were evolving in a form and fashion that no other set of cultures in history had evolved to.

The entire "story" of the American West and all of it participants and cultures is difficult to discern because myths were being written as the real history was being affected. A case in point was Kit Carson, as he was living his life in reality, his fictional "adventures" were being "written" about back east. Myth and reality are severely entertwined in Western American history. The truth is often very hard to find.

The cavalry was not always "gallant", the Indians were not always "noble", and the settlers were not always "innocent."

 

[cmort666]

A good example is the Tet Offensive in Vietnam. It was a huge tactical error for the Communists. When it was over a lot [some say the majority] of the Viet Cong were dead. Some say an intentional plan by Ho Chi Minh to eliminate the VC.

Including some former Viet Cong. Of course Stalin had previously done the same thing with the Jewish and Home Army uprisings in Poland.

 

[feralmerril]

Semperfi, I agree. With just facts of old history it sometimes makes no sense in our modern world the way we would do things. I belive we have to put ourselves back in that time frame with all the facts they had or belived to try and judge their actions.
Right now over at the levergunner site, (I am booger bill over there,) we are haveing a discussion on the mountain meadows massicure, and what were the mormans thinking to do such a attrocity as to wipeing out a 120+ people traveling through? Not one morman would condone it today. What was the information they belived at the time to do it?
I live at cedar city utah where the local militia was the one that wiped out the francher party. I also now have a connection to each side of the massicure. My wifes step mother is the great great grandaughter to John Doyle Lee, the only person exicuted for his part in the massicure. Now our daughter is getting married in july to a decendant of one of the 17 orphans under 8 years old that was spared by the morman militia!
History is interesting!

 

[tabs]

http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/92522-talking-about-heros.html

About 9 years ago I was having brekfast with a friend who said that a fellow nurse his wife knew for 20 years wanted to sell some of the guns she had One of the guns turned out to be a Springfield 50/70 2ND Allin Conversion. My friend told me she said it belonged to a great uncle of hers that was in the army in the 1800's and that he was awarded a citation for bravery. Upon examining the rifle it showed hard use but not abuse. I thought well this is an infantry mans rifle and not a cavalry carbine. So after a month or so I agreed to buy the rifle for $800.

While my friend was on the phone to her I asked btw what was the great uncles name. She told my friend Sadler Otto Voit. Later when I got home I thought hmmm there was only one medal the US gave out beofre WW1 and that was the Medal of Honor. So I went on the net and looked up the list of Medal of Honor winners. Sure enough there was Otto Voit, he was awarded the MH for bravery at the Battle of the Little Big Horn. I then looked up the 7th Cavalry and found he was a member of Captain Benteens company H. Otto Voit was one of the four sharpeshooter that kept the Indians busy while 24 members went down and got water during the Defensive fight on the bluffs over looking the LBH.

Otto Voit joined the 7th Cav upon its formation in 1866, was at the Wasita, Yellow Stone Expedition, Black Hills Expedition, Little Big horn, Canyon Creek (Nez Pierce) and White Clay Creek (Wounded Knee) and finally beofre he retired from the 7th chasing renegade Apaches in AZ. Otto Voit passed away in Louisville KY in 1906. His obit said that he was hit by a spent bullet at the Little Big Horn but was not injured (this is new historical info) He is listed as being among the wounded at the LBH.

From doing research on Voit and the 7th Cav at the LBH, according to Windrolph (another of the 4 shrpsshooter and MH winner) ther were 14 members of the 7th that accompied Benteen and Godfrey to view the Custer massacre site. I believe Voit was one of the 14 troopers that went with Benteen.

In my research on Voit I have contacted the NPS at the LBH and a picture of Voits rrifle is now in their archives. Further I have contacted Glenwood Swanson and Harmon who do the forensic testing on rifles to identify rifles that were present at the LBH. Their thoughts which were independent of mine was that the rifle I have might have belonged to Captain French who was known to have a Big 50 Springfield at the LBH. Unfornately at this time they could not match a cartridge from the Voit rifle to one that was found at the LBH.

So where Voit got and used the rifle remains a mystery? As I stated the rifle shows hard frontier use but not abuse. Most likely Voit used it while off duty to hunt with as it was a popular Buffalo rifle during the 1870's. If one did not know its history one would just think it is another $200 wall hanger.

 

[tabs]

Ironically this past week I got a call from the Great Nephew of Otto Voit. He has his Uncle Otto's Discharge papers signed by Capt Benteen, has a reissue of his MOH and had a long conversation with one of Voits friends and fellow Sharp shooters on the Bluff Henry Melchers daughter..she passed away at the age of 99 in 2006. He had found me through a posting I wrote about the Voit rifle on another Board.


The sequence of Custer and his 5 Troops of Cav massacre is as follows:

Custer views the falling apart of the Reno attack and rout, dismisses the Indian scouts, and sends Bugler Martin back with the message to Benteen to come quick


Custer sends 2 Troops down to the river while he and 3 Troops wait at the top of Calhoun Ridge..those 2 turn back after meeting only light opposition at the river, presumably because the village seems empty. Custer leaves Calhoun's Troop who sets up a skirmish line to defend his rear along with 2 Troops in Reserve under Capt Keogh. Custer proceeds North with 2 Troops trying to find another ford across the river, to cut off the Indians presumable escape...the warriors normally would fight a rearguard action while the woman and children would escape in the opposite direction. Custer presumably finds the ford. pulls back to Last Stand Hill with 2 Troops to wait for Benteen who he thinks is about to appear.

Meanwhile the Indians who had NO KNOWLEDGE of the7TH Cav approach upon hearing that more cav troops are to the east begin to leave the Reno area..who have just been routed by roughly 1500 to 2000 braves..Slowly at first the Indians start to swarm the 5 Troops of Custer Battalion At first drawing in on Calhoun and his skirmish line. One of the 2 remaining Troops in reserve under Capt Keogh makes a charge to break up the Indian advance, they are met with superior force and are routed. This sets up a panic for Lt Calhoun whose troop is then routed in a panic as a lot of Indians are getting ever closer . By this time the Indians are closing in, in full force on foot, hiding behind the bushes etc. This then sets the whole of Keogh's reserve Troop into full flight..some killing themselves as they ran. A few (several from Calhoun's Troop) make it to Last Stand Hill where Custer is beginning to feel the pressure. The fight goes on with ever more Indians drawing in...Custer, his brother Tom must of all fallen and the remaining 40 Troopers including the Scout Mitch Boyer make a break for it towards the Deep Ravine. Needless to say they are basically cut down with about 29 getting near the ravine including Boyer. It is said that Captain Keogh who was wounded and surrounded by his Sergeants back in the Reserve area was the last man to die. As the Indians said the massacre took about as long as a hungry man takes to eat his dinner.

Meanwhile:

Benteen with his 2 Troops and the Pack Train with 1 Troop come up to what is left of the Major Reno Battlion which has suffered 29 dead in running for their lives out of the woods, a good number of wounded and a number of missing...these were left in the woods mostly because they didn't hear of the retreat or run for their lives order. They all returned safely in the next day or so including Lt Rudio. Some members of the Benteen, Reno command said they could hear firing in the distance. Benteen, Weir and 3 Troops start out to find Custer come up to Weir Point and see what looks like Indians shooting into the ground in the distance..By this time the Indians start to turn their attention back to the Reno Benteen command..Benteen and Weir are forced to retreat against heavy odds. They then form a circle on the bluffs over looking the LBH river and fight for their lives through the rest of that day and the next. Benteen at one point has his CO H charge the Indians which breaks the Indian charge...Late the next day having no water and the hearing the wounded cry for water 24 Trooper volunteer to go down a ravine to get water from the river while 4 Troopers..Windrolp,Mechler, Voit and??? stand exposed to Indian fire while providing covering fire for the water expedition. By the end of the day the Indians become aware of the Gibbons forces coming up and begin to disperse..

The next day Benteen and Godfrey along with 14 Troopers of Co H go and view the massacre site. All except for Custer and Keogh are badly mutilated. Keogh presumably because he was wearing a Papal Medal which the Indians thought big medicine and Custer??? Custer did have his ear drums punctured to hear better in the next life.. Custer was wounded in the chest and in the head..some have speculated that he killed himself and that was why the Indians did not mutilate him, it was thought to be bad medicine. Custer did fall on Last Stand Hill and not the river...in actuality his body was found about 10 feet SW of where the marker is. His brother Tom's body was so badly mutilated that they could only identify him from his 2 tattoos. The Indian woman did do the mutilating and scavenging.For years afterwards guns and other artifacts were picked up at the site. The saying about the site by the survivors was, "That it was of ghastly horror."


The archaeological digs at the LBH have determined that there were 200 Winchester Repeating rifles in the hands of the Indians..So Custer was faced with SUPERIOR short range firepower.

The Indians had no idea it was Custer or Long Hair that they were fighting and massacring..It was only long after the fact. TheIndians suffered apx 29 dead during the fight..and a number of their wounded died later...

Benteen upon coming up was faced with not only a distraught Reno, who had the head of his Indian scout splatter all over him when he was hit in the head, a demoralized and exhausted group of soldiers who had just run for their lives, and a large number of wounded. By the time Benteen had come up Custer was already in the midst of his massacre and in reality could not have helped except to add his own Troops to the body count.

Reno was not Courtmartialed but called for a Court of Inquiry on his own hookto clear his name from being slandered by the Custerphiles..It was Libby Custer who spent the rest of her life devoted to santifying the Custer name and legend. She is largely responsible for Custers good name.

Custer was brash, an egotist, self serving, and was reckless. The 7TH cavarly had Custer affectionados Weir being the major surviving one..allthe others were with Custer to be in on the kill and glory while Reno and the others were left to do the dirty work of fighting and dieing..the Reno diversionary attack. Benteen, Reno and to some extent Godfrey had varying degrees of loathing for Custer.

 

[semperfi71]

Hello tabs,

Great history on the ownership of an intriging firearm. I hope you find out more and it has to be exhilirating to own such a famous artifact of history and time.

I will respectfully disagree with some of the comments you have made on the demise of Custer's final command [the massacred].

As to Benteen, I do agree, had he truly followed Custer's orders he would have met the same fate, he would not have had enough men to change the outcome. However, an officer's duty is not an after-the-fact synopsis of what-would-have-happened. I believe he was guilty of not following his orders of going to Custer. However, he came upon Reno, saw the damage there, and made a battlefield decision which ultimately became the right one. Perhaps, in that time and period, such a change of orders by an underling officer were acceptable?

I think that Reno's "cup was full" that day. He had proven his bravery in many a combat in the Civil War. But it has been reported many times that a man [and today, woman] can only be so brave and take so much, at some point in time, they might all break.

Mrs. Custer not only spent her lifetime in defending her husband she spent a pretty sum of money and supposedly lawyers threatening to keep anyone else from commenting on General Custer in any sort of negative manner. Sadly, history was subverted by her attempts.

I still do not glamorize General Custer, he is like all of us, he had faults. But I do not consider him impulsive in his fighting spirit. He WAS impulsive in his personal life with Elizabeth which netted him the punishment he received. And impulsive in other affairs. But as a fighting man he was always on the attack, he retreated as well, but only to re-group and re-attempt an attack, or to re-grop and fight another day. So he was not WHOLLY IMPULSIVE in his bit as a warrior.

However, even President Grant KNEW he was an excellent choice for fighting Indians, so he relented and allowed him back in the Army.

I have always wondered? If the affairs between Grant and Custer were so heated at the time, someone, somehwere had to write about it, either in memoirs, newspapers, etc. I wonder if any such thing exists? I understand "someone" might have written a "tell-all" book but I would like to read some real proof as to what really came down, what a person of intelligence during the time period would have thought of that affair.

For instance, I have a book written by a man who was a respectable, reportedly honest, and productive citizen of Tombstone Arizona during the hey-day of the Earps. He seemed to write with a clear intellect and decency. In other words he seemed to be a decent citizen. He seemed to be the bystander who had no "hook-in-the-matter". He wrote that the Earps were not well respected by the truly respectable people of Tombstone, and they were glad when they left.

Enjoy that rifle and many regards.

 

[Thunderball]

Since I am a son of the south, I don't think much of Custer. He had it comming, karma and all that.....

 

[jimmyj]

Good Morning:
I have enjoyed this post tremendously.
From a practical view, what would the reason be for soldiers to carry a different weapon/caliber than GI issue? I am considering the cost of the privately owned weapons and amounts of ammo that would be needed to be taken afield.
Jimmy

 

[tabs]

The rifle I own would not be the weapon that Voit carried on campaign..that would be the 45/70 Springfield TD Carbine. There were 6 50/70 Springfields present during the defensive fight..One was Capt Frenchs and the other presumably belonged to the civiian Packers...

During the Defnesive Fight the Reno Benteen Soldiers were wondering where Custer had gotten off to. They thought that he possibly had hightailed it to save his own skin. They really didn't think that he could have gotten himself rubbed out...

There are 2 accounts of the Reno Court Of Inquiry..the abridged and a transcript of the actual testimony by each witness. The abridged is far more readable and gives a clearer picture. There is a fine line between being brave and being reckless. Maybe the line is called having good judgement and not letting personal motivations let U exceed your limits or the limits of your command.

Benteen was a blunt no nonsense kind of guy..who had a casutic sense of humor. He despised Custer and his self serving ways that put his own men at needless risk. .

Reno during the Valley fight kept on wondering, "Where is Custer, he said he would support us." (Reno had 120 Troopers against at least 1500 warriors who were starting to out flank him)

Custer was offered another 2 Troops of the 2ND Cav which he declined to take along. He flet his 7TH could whip anything, and as such didn't even follow the orders that were given to him to combine efforts with Gibbons and Terry. Further 30% of the men that he had with him were inexperienced new recruits. Custer at best exhibited BAD JUDGEMENT. This is evidenced by the fact that he had observed the falling apart of the Reno attack and begining of his rout. Custer cetainily had a good idea of the number of warriors that he was facing by this observance of the fight in the Valley.Yet instead of supporting his own soldiers who were in dire circumstances he continued on with his offensive. LT Rudio said at the Inquiry that he had seen Custer on a bluff overlooking the Valley. Further Custers Indian Scout Curly said the same thing. This was kept out of the later accounts by TR, who didn't want to tarnish Custers legend.

The Indians themselves basically said that if Custer hasd supported Reno and had a combined command the 7TH could have whipped them. So Custer gambled one to many a time and it cost him.


BTW: Custer was a Phil Sheridan favorite.. Brother Tom won 2 MOH during the CW.

 

[semperfi71]

tabs, I respectfully disagree with some of your statements.

I doubt Reno ever faced the full threat of ALL of the warriors at Bighorn/Greasy Grass. Either Red Cloud or Crazy Horse [I think Red Cloud] reported that he and his warriors went initially straight at Custer from the village. Only after Custer was annihilated did more warriors come at Reno and Benteen, and by then it was probably still not the full number who fought that day.

The Indian camps were the main objective of the campaign, not supporting Reno. So, I suspect from my readings, that Custer did indeed see Reno's retreat. That is why Custer tried to attack the village at the "ford". He was still thinking that the Indians were going to fight a retreating skirmish and by attacking the village [still the main target] he could create that outcome and relieve Reno by causing the retreat of the warriors. But it has been suspected that Custer was mortally wounded at the "ford" and then his troops under someone else's command led them into the upper country to stand off the increasing numbers of warriors.

I too have heard the reports of "200 repeating rifles" in the hands of the warriors at the battle. However some of them were used against Reno and probably some of those stayed there in continuing to pin down Reno as the rest went after Custer. Even if 200 repeating rifles were used against Custer they would not have created the final outcome alone. The Indians themselves report not as many repeaters as later reporters told of, even so the 200 figure might be close to the truth when one considers the the total number of warriors, probably close to 1500 in all. The Indians themselves reported most of their work was done with bows from the coulees and when Custer's soldiers were truly dominated then the remainder were finished off at close range with all weapons in use.

Custer's orders were not strict in that they required he wait for the other units to arrive before he attacked the village. His orders were to find the village, IF POSSIBLE wait for the rest of the troops, if not, if it appeared the Indians were fleeing, to attack. He did so. He saw the dust cloud of the horse herd and he thought they were being gathered up for retreat.

One must remember the intention of the entire operation against the combined tribes was not to kill and capture warriors, it was to destroy the villages, destroy or capture the horses, and to capture the women, old people, and children. By doing so, in the previous experiences of the warfare in the west the warriors and surviving tribe members would come to the reservations later since they had no horses, supplies, and distended family groups.

I am assuming this but Custer might have left the 2nd Cavalry units behind because they were not accustomed to his leadership, he already had some "renegade" officers in his own unit, and because he wanted to move as fast as possible, adding new, unfamiliar troops to his command could have, in his mind, slowed him down. I doubt he was wanting the "glory" for himself. Even an egotist such as Custer might have wanted extra troops along, if they did not hamper operations, which he probably felt they would.

I believe that Custer was following what was considered sound tactics of the day against the Indian nations at Bighorn/Greasy Grass. Crook attempted the exact same operation against the same Indians two weeks before. And he faced lesser numbers. They almost overan him because they did not retreat but instead assaulted Crook even before he could reach the village.

So I believe the Indians had finally realized that their back was to the wall. No longer did they have many places to run to. They had to assault rather than skirmish and retreat. Only they didn't tell Crook and Custer of their intentions. They "demonstrated" them instead.

By the time the Army got around to a formal investigation of the entire affair I suspect they already were prepared to cover up and shift blame if necessary. Reno got blamed until he called for a formal court of inquiry. One must remember the "white man" mindset then and even now. How could a well armed and trained, and supposedly superior fighting force be annihilated by supposedly untrained, ill-armed [many still used bows], and formerly "cowardly" [they fought and run] mixed band of Indian nations which had little previous instance of cohesive tactics? But the Sioux, Cheyenne, and Arapahoe [the three most reported groups there] had done exactly that. They were banded together in an offensive and defensive manner against the Army as they had never done [except Crook at the Rosebud] before.

And the Army could not face the reality of the real cause of the defeat. The Indians fought a different and stronger tactic that day. I have read whereby the Army never really interviewed many, if any of the Indians who were at Bighorn/Greasy Grass that day. Had they done so, they would have learned some things they were not willing to admit to.

 

[tabs]

Reno and other officers in the Valley fight reported anywhere from a 1000 to 2000 warriors facing them. As the Indians learned of another Cav group they then turned their attention onto that group which they after the fact found outit was Long Hair. The numbers against Custer in the begining were small but quickly became an overwhelming force against him as warriors returned from fighting Reno and came out of the village to fight him.

The archaeological digs at the battle site indicate 200 repeaters and a whole variety of other weaponary from musket to repeater. They used anything and everything. They could even trace the movements of one Indian by the shell casings he left behind. That is also why they know that several of the Troopers on Calhoun Hill made it to Last Stand Hill.

As indicated 2 Troops went down Medicine Coule to the ford there, which was lightly defended. Seeing that the village was empty and not going to net Custer the women, children and horses they withdrew. Custer with 2 Troops continued further North to find another Ford, while 3 Troops remained behind to provide defense. Upon finding that they then withdrew to Last Stand Hill to await Benteen. By that time his command was facing increasing by the minute oposition. There was no time to even mount an organized defense except for the skirmish line on Calhoun Hill which was formed before the Indians appeared enmass.

By the time Benteen came up there were very few Indians in his vicinity, and that was why Weir was able to go looking for Custer. He got to Weir point by which time the Indians were returning enmass to the Reno Benteen sector.

One book indicates from an Indian account that a Soldier was shot while trying to cross a Ford. One Sgt was found near the ford at Medicine Coule. Custer by all indications was killed where he lay when found. A Shot in the chest and a shot in the head.

Custers orders were to move n conjunction with the other columns moving on the LBH. Custer moved very fast to be the first on the scene and that was where he superceded his orders. Why because he wanted the glory all to himself. One officer who was present on the Far Horizon at the campaign planning session felt that Custer didn't take the 2 extra 2ND Cav Troops because he wanted the vicitory for himslef and the 7th. As indicated Custer flet the 7th could whip any Indian force all by itself. That officer had a bad feeling about Custer not taking those extra Troops and was glad not to have gone along with Custer even before Custer moved out on campaign.

There were fewer women and children in the Indian camp on the LBH than what could to be considered to be normal. Most of the Indians had jumped the reservation leaving family behind. It is true the objective was to capture as many woman, children and horse as possible and that was why Custer continued on North to cut off that retreat. To achieve that goal he left Reno to his fate as a diversionary sacrafice. There was a similar fate to another officer at the Wasita where apx 30 Troopers were killed and that Custer reputaion didn't sit too well with some of the officers in the command.

Indian tactics didn't change much at the Rosebud or LBH there were just many many more of them in one place. They also had more of a stand and fight attitude in other words they were pissed off. Sitting Bull had a vison a few days before the battle that they would achieve a great victory. He also told them not to take any of the White Mans belongings because they would rue the day they did. Yet it was an overwhelming temptation to take eveythng that they could.

The Indians were a well respected fighting force long before the Custer massacre. That is why the Troopers ran in fear of their lives, even killing themselves rather than face capture. There was even one Trooper who got away from the massacre site on horse and was being chased by 2 indians who had just about given up the chase when he killed himself. Remember the Inquiry was called for by Reno to clear his name and reputation from the Custerphiles laying the blame at his feet and not Custers.

There is no way around it, Custer displayed at best poor judgement and that day his LUCK ran out.

By all means get a copy of Glenwood Swansons "The Life And Time Of GA Custer" It is only being published ONCE according to Glen. By being a major collector of the 7TH and the battle he has had access to almost all of the govt and private collections to photograph them for his book.

 

[semperfi71]

tabs, I will have to get the book mentioned, it migh tbe useful.

I have read [I have the book, cannot remember which one] that Custer's orders were as I have reported.

There is no doubt that Custer had many detractors in the service with him. Benteen had written a series of articles in, I think, The Army/Navy Journal [if I remember correctly] that were under a psuedonym and very, very caustic and damaging. It has been reported that when Custer found out he called an officer's meeting and demanded to know who wrote it. Benteen spoke up without fear and confirmed he did. Custer was reported as being so livid he could no speak further but rushed out of the meeting. I can only imagine today what would happen to an American military officer who wrote such activity. His career would probalby be over and most likely he would be up on charges.

I believe the hatred towards Custer clouded the judgment of later "reporters" who were at the battle and survived. And I believe that hatred has spilled over to modern day "reporters" and archivists. I have no such feelings. I always wanted to know the truth and didn't have any desires to support one or the other. Custer's actions originally belie MODERN military tactics. But he was not fighting modern warfare.

As I have said before the key, to me, is not the totallity of writings on Bighorn/Greasy Grass. Most of what is written is oft-repeated writings written before by some else who might have had a prejudice. But by reading of many Indian/Army fights and White Men/Indian fights one can see the mindset of the time period in fighting Indians.

A modern Army General wrote a thesis at West Point on the battle and his report was inline with my beleifs. Crook and Custer had their planned assaults "assaulted" by the "assaultees". They did not flee as expected, they attacked and fought, hence their "power" was increased by their determination. A man who fights in offense is a more challenging opponent than one who fights in defense.

Regards.

 

[R. G. Amos]

Custer was not an "Indian Fighter", the Washita not withstanding. His prior successes such as they were were due to thoughtless audacity and incredible luck. At the Little Big Horn, his luck, and unfortunately that of the troopers with him, ran out.

 

[semperfi71]

Nathan Bedford Forrest of Confederate cavalry fame has almost always been commended for his audacity and his luck in his good fortunes of the Civil War. And he was one of the most aggressive warriors of that war, consistently taking on larger odds.

I have always been curious why he is commended for the same audacity that General Custer displayed in the same war. Yet Custer has been considered reckless by others.

Custer also had about as much experience fighting Indians as did any other leading officer of Colonel rank and higher in the Western Wars. And his keen interest in the entire western world might have given him a bit of "edge" over others.

Crook was considered a great warrior against the Indians. But he was beaten at Rosebud attempting the same tactics as Custer and relieved of comand against the Apache.

 

[tabs]

Part of the reason why Reno called the Court of Inquiry was due to newspaper articles blaming him for Custer's demise. So the Press was not anti-Custer. Further Teddy Roosevelt squashed the story that was going to be told in a book about the Indian Scout Curly's account about Custer on the bluff seeing Reno start to crumble. This story was not told for some odd 80 years because of that.

Custer himself was almost cashiered from the Army and only his benefactor Sheridan convinced Grant let him re assume the de facto command of the 7Th. COL Sturgis was its real commander.

Consider Custers situation..Custer is told by his Indian scouts that there is a big village because of all the pony hoof prints they had seen. They told him if he went down there he would die. Custer stands on the bluff sees that Reno's command is crumbling because of the long odds against him...meaning one he11 of allot of Indians..that aren't running away. One would think that a reasonable person might change their plan of operations to meet the current exigencies of the situation. Especially when your command of 11 Companies is broken up into 4 pieces..5 with Custer, 3 with Reno, 2 with Benteen and 1 with the Pack Train not only that but 4 Troopers from each company were assigned to the Pack Train, so Custer was 20 short or about 1/2 of one company in his own 5 companies. Each company had about 40 to 50 men in it. Custer was gambling that he could ride north and cut off the escaping Indians to the North before they could finish off Reno and turn North to come after him..that was the decision Custer made in light of the facts known to him.

 

[semperfi71]

tabs,

Again I respectfully disagree. Custer did indeed see Reno's charge fail.

At this point you, I, and anybody else is only hypothesizing. I believe Custer indeed was changing his plan. That is why he sent for Benteen. I think he wanted to reinforce his units because he saw the warriors had changed the plan for him. They were in an assault mode and not a retreat mode.

I think Custer went to the ford, as reported by the Indians themselves, to relieve Reno by continuing the assault. But he was reversed at the ford and therefore, if not mortally wounded as some believe, was attempting to retreat back up into the more open country and effect a strong defense. But that plan failed as by then Reno was stymied and many of the warriors were now attacking Custer as well as others who came at him from the opposite end [north I think]. Custer's units became broken up and destroyed piecemeal.

Custer knew the size of the village for a long while. He too had seen the large, broad trail leading to the Bighorn Valley and he knew enough of Indians that he was heading towards a large concentration. As I have stated here before, almost all Indian warriors, included U.S. allies were always reluctant to attack larger forces, they were accustomed to not being able to stand the losses incurred in either that or large scale, open combat. Their tactics were standard guerilla tactics of every guerilla war since...hit-and-run, ambush, wait interminanly for the "right" opportunity.

So naturally Custer's Crow scouts did not want to fight. I think this is the reason why Custer himself gave the permission to leave the area before the battle began. Some did and some did not.

Even if Custer had marched en masse with all of his units [Reno, Benteen] to the hills above the villages, if the Indians had caught his command in the area of the coulees, and if they had used the coulees as they did against Custer, the damage to his units would have been great. Maybe even an almost complete massacre with few survivors.

Custer, by accident, was forced into unfavorable terrain for fignting that day. Before he could recover he was annihilated. Reno felt, maybe or not correctly, that he too was almost overrun AFTER he made his STAND in the high ground above the valley. However he had open ground, clear fields of fire, and some protections from return fire. Hence he and Benteen were able to stand off the warriors and survive.

Soon, maybe we will have a time machine. Then you and I will travel to the actual battle, in Indian attire of course [female would be best] and then as "observers" we can watch and see what really happened. If I am proven wrong, I'll buy the firewater afterwards.

 

[tabs]

It is quite possible that Custer upon seeing the large number of Indians thought prudence was the better part, so he stood around waiting on Last Stand Hill for Benteen to come up after discovering the Ford to the North. That prudence if he indeed was acting in that fashion cost him..because those few minutes of time wasted waiting on Last Stand Hill gave the Indians enough time to swarm him. Custer was gambling on time and he wasted it while waiting.

Let me make it clear there were 2 Fords involved the one at Medicine Coule and one to the North..Custer dispatched 2 Companies to cross the river at Medicine Coule..finding the village deserted those units went back up to Calhoun Hill where Custer with 3 compainies were waiting. One sgt body was found in this Ford area.. Custer then left 3 companies to act as a defensive force while he and 2 companies recointerd for a Ford to the North. Upon finding that Ford he returned to Last Stand Hill. He was there for about 15 minutes or so before the Indians started to swarm him..a few at first and as time went more and more..That is pretty much the sequence of events as determined by the archaeological digs and the indian accounts..

The terrain does not differ much from the Last Stand Site to the Defensive area..it is all rolling hills cut with ravines down to the river. The Indians said that if Custer had a unified command the 7Th could have beaten them..As it was 6 1/2 Companies plus some civilain Packers minus the already dead and wounded who were incapable of fighting held off the combined Indian forces for a little longer than a day and a half. They were well supplied with ammuntion and supplys minus water for the better part of 24 hours.. A unified command would still have had offensive power. A better decison would have been for Custer to move his forces towards Benteen..Custer made the cardinal mistake of dividing your forces.

Further by the time Benteen came up and found Reno's forces in disary on the Bluffs Custer was already involved in his massacre this is evidenced by the Reno Benteen forces hearing firing in the distance. If Benteen had proceeded on, by the time he got to Custer..Custer would already have been rubbed out. Benteen then would have been subject to the full onslught of the Indians and he to would have met the same fate. Reno then with his few remaining troops on the bluff would then have been easy prey for the Indians to mop up.

 

[tabs]

The only defense that the digs at the massacre site determined was mounted was at the skirmish line on Calhoun Hill..Beyond that there was NO organized defense found. Once Calhoun Hill fell there wasn't time enough and it was a complete falling apart and rout. Panic had set in as they suddenly found themselves confronted with a lot of Indians. Troopers even killed themselves in running towards Last Stand Hill...

The majority of the Indians came from the Valley fight in the South..upon hearing that another group of Cavalry was spoted to the North..having already routed Reno the Indians left that area to meet the new threat of Custer. This comes from the pieced together in a 15 minute time line Indian accounts as put forth in "Lakota Noon." It is ironic that some Indians say they never saw any of Custers forces near the river while other say they saw them down at the river. That can be explained that the ones who did see them were there early on while the ones who didn't came on the scene a bit later. Crazy Horse it was presumably determined rode through the area between Calhoun Hill and Last Stand Hill aka the Keogh Area...Thus while the Calhoun Hill forces were in the throws of being routed the Indians just about simotaniously charged through the Keogh area causing those troops to panic and make a run for it towards Last Stand Hill.

Reno during the Valley fight saw about 1500 Indians to his front, dismounted, formed a skirmish line to defend. Upon seeing the Indians start to outflank him retreated to the woods. There too the Indians started to outflank him and even get behind him on the bluffs above. About that time he was about to give the order to retreat out of the woods when his Indian scout was hit in the head blowing blood and brains all over Reno..Reno then along with everybody who had gotten the message ran for their lives in amad dash for crossing the river to the bluffs above..this is where Reno lost 29 men. The Indians attacked them like they were on a Buffalo hunt. Reno and the other officers present felt that if he had stayed in wood they would have been surrounded and ahnilated. The one thing they kept on wondering was where was Custer, he promised to support us. .

 

[tabs]

After going through numerous books many of which are confusing and contradict each other I have found 3 books that pretty much tell the story.

1. The abridged version of the Reno Court of Inquiry..or if you have the patience the transcript version. The abridged pieces the testimony into a clear and concise story. Here you get the officers testimony of the Valley and Defensive fights..this is first hand stuff.

2. Lakota Noon..gathers all the Indian accounts from all sources and breaks it down into 15 minute intervals..You can actually follow the various Indian warriors and their participation.

3. I can't give a specific title ..but there are several books on the evidence found during the archaeological digs and the conclusion they draw.

4. The Life and Times OF GA Custer.. beautifully photographed picture of memorbilia from the various collections. While the text of the book is short..if you follow the text when combined with the captions next to the photos it weaves the story all together. You also have to consider that having a copy of this book wiil be a collectable as the author said it ain't gona be republished..and anything on Custer well..it just gets crazy money.

I think that if you go through all the books mentioned you get a pretty clear idea of what happened. Some accounts have Custer maybe being wounded at the river..that largely comes from an early book on the Indian accounts. The account basically as I remember it was that the Cavalry were changing across the river that was defended by 6 Indians. One of them shot and wounded a Soldier after which they picked him up and started to retreat very quickly as in a panic...as stated there was the body of a sgt found near the river at Medicine Coule. This account doesn't quite jive with Custer being the wounded soldier and other accounts. Custer wasn't multilated, he did have a finger cut off and his ear drums pierced..to hear better in the after life...which would fit with the Indians not multilating suicides. Custer had a gunshot wound in the chest and in the head. SOOO??????????

It is true that the body buried at West Point may not be Custer or all of Custer..and partially someone else??? The Troopers who buried the dead at the scene of ghastly horror..didn't have many shovels and had to make due..they piled as many rocks and other stuff that they could find on top of the bodies as best they could.

There is also an interesting book of period photos from 1877 until the 1980's or 1990's when the book was published of the then, later and now photos of the battle site..by comparing them they found that Custers first burial site is a few feet off from where he now is supposed to have fallen. Also the number of markers on the site and placement is not accurate..when they were placing the grave markers some of those who fell at the Defensive fight are marked at the Massacre site.

One of the big mysterys has been the 29 Troopers that were said to have been found in the Deep Ravine..the archaeological digs have found no trace of them there? The best that can be determined is that near the end the roughly 40 or so surviving Troopers including the Scout Mitch Boyer decided they needed to make a break for it (probably after Custer and the other officers had fallen) ..towards the Deep Ravine and presumably safety. Between Last Stand Hill and the Deep Ravine there was a string of about 29 bodies..upon first thought it appeared that they might have been a skirmish line..but there weren't very many cartridge cases found near them to indicate it was a skirmish line..there were quite afew found on Calhoun Hill to indicate it was a skirmish line. After genetic testing it was determined that a skull fragment found near Deep Ravine was that of a half Indian and half White man...so they determined that it was the Scout Mitch Boyer..

 

[Road Rat]

I always thought "Custer Had It Coming".

I do feel sorry for his men!